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tpollard95124
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:29 am  Reply with quote
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I read on a "how to" post about using a pinto bean to displace shot - for example when you want to put 1oz of shot in an SP16 wad. Has anybody tried this Shocked , and if so have they patterned the load with no ill effects?

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:48 am  Reply with quote
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Now that is a waste of perfectly good Pinto beans. I prefer mine refried or served up with onions and cracklin' corn bread on the side. I don't think they'd taste too good your way. Besides, ain't it Quaker Puffed Wheat that is shot from guns? Laughing

Actually, nearly every shotshell manual I've ever read suggests using different thicknesses of nitro card wads in the shot cup. Usually a guage or two smaller will work: 20 ga card wads in 10 and 12 gauge, 28 in 16, 410 in 28. Using card wads under the shot preserves the surface of the shot for the folds of the crimp to rest on. Also, the shot is supported by a flat, mallable surface that will not deform the pellets nor allow them to penatrate upon setback. Plus, the wads are predictable in how much shot they will displace. The end result is much more uniform crimping and consistant, repeatable ballistics. Works for me. Has for many years now. if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Wink
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Keith B
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:55 pm  Reply with quote
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tpollard95124 wrote:
I read on a "how to" post about using a pinto bean to displace shot - for example when you want to put 1oz of shot in an SP16 wad. Has anybody tried this Shocked , and if so have they patterned the load with no ill effects?


That is the way I load for my 16s. I drop one pinto into the bottom of the SP16 wad, then load 1 oz of shot. It has worked just fine for me.

Keith B
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
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I use the puffed wheat for my 1 oz. 16 ga. loads in the R-16 wad---very cheap and no problems ! I add it right over the shot.

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hoashooter
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:06 pm  Reply with quote
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The problem with card wads is the cost.Pinto beans,etc. are next to nothing and work well when place on top of the shot and just before the crimp start
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:15 am  Reply with quote
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I tend to rely on the advice of the guys in the ballistics labs who develop the data for the reloading manuals. The card wad method is the one they recommend. I've found that they are correct. The method gives very uniform and repeatable ballistics and patterning.

Sometimes its more a question of what is wanted. If saving a penny per shell is your aim, then pinto beans or puffed wheat or styrofoam peanuts, or whatever will work. However, if the best ammo you can produce with the tools and componants available is what you want, then the card wads work very well.

I buy my card wads from Circle fly in bulk. The cost per shell is negligable this way. The cards are also very systematic. Each one displaces exactly 1/8 ounce of shot in a 16 ga wad. I can use the knowledge to load any weight shot load I want just by adding of subtracting card wads. There is absolutely no guess work and my crimps all come out perfect. What could be easier. Its well worth the 25 cents per box extra to me, especially for hunting ammo. I owe that much to the game I shoot to ensure the shell will kill cleanly. Its worth the peace of mind I get from knowing my ammo will do the job every time.

But, to each his own. We are all entitled to shoot the ammo that pleases us most.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:31 am  Reply with quote
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Guy, I'm not sure what you mean with the "displacing shot" remark. If I've got a 7/8 oz bar on my reloader, it's going to drop 7/8 oz of shot, regardless of what I put in the bottom of the wad, or on top of the shot column. We're talking about using something for filler here, not removing shot to insert a spreader disc or something of that nature. The problem is too much space in the hull, hence the filler.

The card wads go back to the old, pre-plastic wad days, and work just fine. However, for target shooting purposes, something like pinto beans or Puffed Wheat (or discs cut from styrofoam, which is what I used before I went to Puffed Wheat) all work quite nicely. If you send your reloads off to be tested for pressure and velocity, you will find that you will get some variation from load to load, no matter what you use--card wad, pinto bean, Puffed Wheat, styrofoam. In fact, having had factory loads tested as well, I've learned that you can get quite a variation in both pressure and velocity even with shells right out of the manufacturer's box. So it's far from an exact science--as much art as science, in fact, as Mr. Brister indicated in the title of his book.
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Dave Miles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:43 am  Reply with quote
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Larry, I think what 16gg is saying is. If you have a wad designed for 1-1/8 oz. of shot and your loading 7/8 oz. You drop 2 cards in the bottom of the wad. with each card displacing 1/8 oz. of shot. Now your 7/8 oz load can be crimped just like a 1-1/8 oz. No guessing at how many pinto beans to put in.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:33 am  Reply with quote
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Exactly right Dave. Larry, there are normal variances with every load. However, why interject one.The more uniformly we make our ammo, the narrower those variances will be. The card wad does several things a pinto bean, puffed wheat, or styrofoam wads and peanuts won't do and won't do the things that might hurt the load's performance.

Card wads provide a flat, non-penatratible, but uniformly cushioned support for the shot to rest on. The cards are also nearly identical in weight and shape. They also will not usually become part of the shot stream if placed at the bottom of the wad cup under the shot.

Pinto beans are not uniform in size, shape, or weight. Nor does the shot rest on them. They become part of the shot stream, an unpredictable part. Who can predict if and where the bean will lead to a hole in the pattern. That is critical when using a smaller amount of shot in a sub load.

As for puffed wheat or styrofoam discs or peanuts, they are not resistant to penetration and disintergration. Who can say how much shot becomes trapped in the plastic or the puffed wheat. If this happens, that will also change the density of this piece or pieces of ejecta. More variences will result as they interact with the shot in the stream. The styrofoam discs can be made uniform in size and weight, but they do not support the shot uniformly unless a hard card is inserted between them and the shot. To properly use them, you still need to lay a thin card wad over them to protect them from the shot.

Finally, placing card wads under the shot presents the surface of the shot to the folds of the crimp. The folds will push into the shot and find their own level. The shot itself will push them out of the way nearly the same way every time if the folds are both uniform in shape and pressed into position with the same amount of force. Also, the card wads will push on the petals of the plastic wad the same way each time and actually help them to open faster once the wad leaves the barrel. This helps the shot stream outrun the wad. It helps prevent the wad from crashing into the back of the shot stream and upsetting it. None of these benifits are possible with puffed wheat sitting on top of the shot--not from pinto beans either.

As I said, I use card wads because they are more uniform in size, weight, shape, placement, and therefore the effects they have on the ballitics of the shell. They are simply more predictable. They work for me, every time.

I've often said that all wingshooting is an act of faith. Using card wads removes one more little doubt in the back of my mind about how good or bad my ammo might be. More confidence leads to better shooting. To me, that is what its all about in the end. Each to his own. 16GG.
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:55 am  Reply with quote
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I've been using beans as filler whenever necessary in my 16 loads. Tried them under and over the shot. Either way, I noticed absolutely no difference in how they busted clays. I do have some nitro cards on order now and will try them to see if it changes anything. Think I'll run them all on the pattern board and see what happens.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
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I'll keep using my puffed wheat and breaking my 24's and 25's and let someone else worry about how much the load integrity is affected....screwing around with the cards just complicates an already distasteful process......

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Slidehammer
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:56 am  Reply with quote
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It never ceases to amaze me what people will put into shotcups in the interest of saving a few pennies.

Probably my favorite is spent shotshell primers! Some even stating the primer can break the bird if it hits it! Ever wonder what happens if a battery cup flange edge gets into a wad slit?

Then we have the kitchen!!! Leave this area to the wife! Most things on the shelf here are soluble or very hygroscopic.......... Not what belongs in a shotshell! Take a few of your puffed wheat kernels and weigh them. Then place them on a shelf in the shower to be exposed to the steam for a couple of days....... Now weigh them again.......... He who thinks this much humidity isn't possible hasn't lived on the gulf coast!

Styrofoam is probably not a bad choice......... It is non-hygroscopic.. I've used washed meat trays and punched out wads with decent results. They come out disintergrated but patterns seem uneffected.

Of course the correct wad is the best idea. Then as 16gaugeguy states the nitro card in the bottom of the cup as the best retrofit.

It all depends if you want dependable reloads or the other kind.

Slidehammer
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 8:21 am  Reply with quote
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I shot three hygroscopic rounds last week.....24, 24, 25. Must have been a favorable humidity day! My nitro cards arrived on Saturday, will my shooting suffer if I don't add water to compensate for their nonhydroscopicness? Question Laughing Question
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:55 am  Reply with quote
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Geez guys, I didn't aim to start a war. It's just that properly cooked pinto beans is one of my favorite foods. I just can't stand the idea of blowing them out the end of a shotgun barrel, when I could be having a plateful. Laughing

Use whatever filler your little ole hearts desire. The main thing is that you get to use your 16 ga guns to the fullest--light loads to heavy, targets to turkeys and everything in between.

I use card wads because they work for me, I get them cheap, they are easy to insert, and they give uniform results. I'd use marshmellow fluff if it worked the best. If somebody else used peanut butter, we could use the left overs for fluffernutter sandwiches. come to think of it, I'd like one right now. I'm gone to the kitchen.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 2:43 pm  Reply with quote
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Well, if I stored my ammo somewhere it was real humid, or used my shells with Puffed Wheat filler for duck hunting, I'd probably worry about humidity. However, my shells are stored in my office, where it does not get very humid, and since they're lead loads, I couldn't use them for waterfowl anyhow.

Weight, you say? 2-32ga card wads, often used as filler in 16ga loads, weigh 12 grains on my powder scale. 4 kernels of Puffed Wheat, roughly average size, weigh under 3 grains. As I said, I don't soak mine in water before I reload; nor have I ever noticed my cereal getting soggy before I add milk. So I suppose it's possible that they might absorb a little moisture, but I doubt they'll end up being as heavy as those card wads--not that I'm at all worried about their weight either.

Somehow, I don't think shot traveling at 1200 fps is going to get "trapped" in Puffed Wheat. I've shot those loads long enough to see what happens to the Puffed Wheat when I pull the trigger--as have the guys behind me, when the wind's blowing their way. Itty bitty, teeny tiny pieces of Puffed Wheat--which is anyhow, as the ads from my youth told me, the cereal "shot from guns".Smile Obviously, no one here is talking used primers, etc.

Puffed Wheat either crushes when you crimp the load, or sits there on top to get blown away when you pull the trigger. Uniformity, you say? I've sent my Puffed Wheat loads to Tom Armbrust to be tested for pressure and velocity. Also sent him some other loads using card wads. Pressure variation was fairly significant in both--800 psi with the cards, 900 with the PW--but so low in both cases it made no difference. More velocity difference with the PW--average of 25 fps, whereas the card wads was only 10 fps. But again, I won't argue with either of those. If you want to advertise your loads as being "uniform", that's fine with me--but then show me the velocity and pressure readings to prove it. You will ALWAYS get some variation in both, even right out of the factory box.

As for the use of "displace", that's undoubtedly my writer mind, in search of "le mot juste", as they say in French. When you're using filler, you are not DISplacing shot, which would mean you're getting rid of some and substituting something else; rather, you're REplacing shot with filler. There is no displacement from the stated shot charge weight.
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