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driggy
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:08 pm  Reply with quote



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Just checking out gun broker and noticed a Charles Daly O/U. Didn't know they had them back in the 70s or whenever this one was made. Auction # 47629048 Going for $750 right now with no opening bids yet.
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hoashooter
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:32 pm  Reply with quote
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There is a reason no one has started bidding Twisted Evil
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Dave Miles
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 6:10 pm  Reply with quote
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From the pictures, looks like the gun has alot of drop in the stock.
LOP looks a little short also. But pictures can be deseving. Smile
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rpm
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 6:31 pm  Reply with quote



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Charles Daly guns go back to at least the early part of the 20th century. I'm certainly no authority, but I've always heard that only recently has the Charles Daly name been associated with sub-standard guns.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:22 am  Reply with quote
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To my knowledge, there were never any Japanese (Miroku-made) Dalys back in the 60's and 70's, neither sxs nor OU. There are current (Italian-made, I think) Daly OU's, and there were some pretty good Belgian-made Daly OU's back before WWII. Without really stopping to think about it, I can come up with Dalys made in at least 5 different countries. Most of them, until the current ones, were at least decent guns. Some, like the early German and some Belgian ones, were excellent. But sorting out all the branches on the Daly tree gets complicated.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 5:10 am  Reply with quote
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Larry, it isn't often you goof on a subject, but you did on this one. So your batting average is now no longer 1000. Sad Wink

Actually, Miroku did indeed make guns for Charles Daly in the '60s and early 70's. This was prior to 1975 when Browning gained exclusive rights to Miroku made guns marketed in the US. The Charles Daly/Miroku O/U models were as follows: the Venture grade, the Field grade, and the Superior grade plus a few special limited editions. The guns all exhibit the same good workmanship and attention to detail Miroku guns are noted for. The engraving on the early field models, the superior grade, and some of the special edition guns is very well done by hand. Some later models were machine engraved. The wood ran from solid pedesrtrian to stunning in some cases.

The actions used a very unique solid spring arrangement where the strikers were vertically opposed. One struck upwards and one struck downwards. The locking lug/top lever spring was also a solid unit. However, it took the right training and knowledge to replace the springs in case they broke, which they did do occasionally. With the right technique, the job was easy. without it, the job was a nightmare and a lot of these unique guns were damaged by folks who didn't know the right way to do it., which was to unscrew the firing pin bushings first to relieve the tension on the springs. Once this was done, the springs fell into place without any difficulty. This required a special bushing wrench available only to official repair facilities. However, making one was not too difficult which is how I got mine.

The production of these guns were discontinued in 1973 and coil springs were introduced in the Browning Citori. However, there were some solid spring type guns made from existing parts up to 1974-5. Some were marketed under the Charles Daly contract, and some were offered as close outs by Miroku directly to US importers just prior to the start of the Browning contract which is still in force today.

Miroku also made a series of SxS guns. I've seen them occasionally at gun shows and in the used gun sections. They appear to be well made and similar to the Browning BSS. However, I can't remember ever seeing one with the Charles Daly logo on it. I don't know if the firm marketed these SxS guns or just the O/U models.

For years after Charles Daly stopped marketing these Miroku guns, the prices on clean used models remained at bargain basement levels. It was not unheard of to find new in box superior grade guns for under $300 and sometimes even less. The field and venture grade guns could be had for less. Even the little bores were cheap. I amassed quite a collection of them from 1980 through 1997.

This is no longer true. A clean, relatively unused field or superior grade will cost over $1200 now. Small framed 28 and .410 models bring much more. The limited production "baby frame" 28 ga guns are now bringing nearly 4K and over. Guns unfired in the box also bring a fat premium. Folks now recognize the excellent workmenship in these guns and will pay for them.

Occasionally, you might find a Miroku gun without any importer's logo. These guns were and are made for the Canadian, British, and European market under Miroku's own name. they are also well made and very servicable.
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nhdblfan
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:41 am  Reply with quote
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Actually the very best ones where made in Prussia,and Germany in the the late 1800's and early 1900's if you want to check out one I just picked up here is link to the thread on this board
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1179&start=15

Daly, actually never "made" They where made by Lindner,Sauer and other fine makers then.
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Rabbitdog
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:49 am  Reply with quote
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About a month ago I was able to lacate and purchase a NEW Charles Daly
O/U Field II Hunter in 16 ga. It was made in Italy. The fit and finish are remarkable for an O/U that cost me about $850. That was dealer cost and shipping. It has 26 inch barrels that are Mod/IC. The wood is beautiful
dark walnut and has a high gloss finish. Receiver is color case hardened with
lots of engraving ( stamped I think). LOP is 13 3/4. It has a single "Selective " trigger. Chambers are 3 inch ! Weight it 6 lbs. 6 oz.
Balance point is exactly at the hinge pin. Heel drop is 1 7/8" and comb
drop is 1 1/2" I have fired 200 rounds through it so far at the Trap range.
Functions great. It fits me well and has improved my scores on average by
1.5 birds per round. As of now the barrels are at the Hastings Barrel factory
having a set of Briley choke tubes installed. I like this gun well enough to spend the extra money for added utility. So far I am pleased. I'll let you know how pleased in about another 2,000 rounds.
Rabbitdog.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:03 am  Reply with quote
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I have some old gun magazines from the 70's with ads for Charles Daly (y'all might remember the tough but distinguished looking guy with white hair shown in some ads shooting trap and skeet with his 'wife and son') Later ads do show the O/Us and SXSs together but I think the O/Us were introduced some yrs before the SXSs.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:37 am  Reply with quote
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Nhdblfan wrote "Actually the very best ones where made in Prussia,and Germany in the the late 1800's and early 1900's if you want to check out one I just picked up here is link to the thread on this board
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1179&start=15

Daly, actually never "made" They where made by Lindner,Sauer and other fine makers then"


Some of the German and Belgian Charles Dalys were excellent. However, its tough to find a clean used one in good shape today. Plus, the prices are out of sight. And yes, Charles Daly has always been an importer. They never have manufactured any guns to my knowledge. The name has been sold a number of times too. Trying to get service on many of their older models is now nearly impossible. Parts just don't exist for them anymore.

Browning does not make any of its guns either. They are contracted out just like CD guns. However, Browning America has been in business now for decades. Some partners have come and gone, but the core business is still intact. Miroku has been making the majority of their guns since 1975. That is probably the main reason the quality and integrity of the Browning line has remained good. Miroku is and has been a great gun making firm for many years. They were very good before they and Browning joined up. Now the two companies are almost synonymous.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:05 pm  Reply with quote
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Woops--I did indeed goof in the above post, by leaving out one small but very important item. I'm very well aware that Miroku made guns under the Charles Daly name, and in fact have owned several of them (mostly sxs). What they DID NOT make, however, and what I didn't catch in my quick proofreading, was any 16 GAUGE guns--at least not to my knowledge.

At least in my part of the country, the Miroku Dalys are still bargains, relatively speaking. Not unusual to find a very good 12ga, OU or sxs, for around $600. 20's are higher, but I don't think I've seen one yet tagged at 4 figures--with the exception of a very minty Miroku-marked sxs that I just traded to Cabela's. The true 28 OU's are the most expensive, by a good bit.

Most of the Japanese Daly sxs featured DT, extractors, a BT forend, and a PG, although there were exceptions. And most had blued receivers. The one I probably should have kept was only marked Miroku, not Daly. It was a 12, straight/splinter, DT, extractors, case colored receiver, factory choked IC/IM--a great pheasant gun. Looked for all the world like a very plain Birmingham boxlock.

I also owned a Belgian Daly OU from the 30's, 16 no less. It had a Miller ST (wish it had had DT's!) Stoeger imported OU's in their "Zephyr" line that looked almost exactly the same, and in fact were probably made by the same Belgian maker (Masquelier, according to Don Zutz). Francotte OU's from the same period also looked very similar.

Any time you're dealing with old guns, unless they happen to be something American and very common (like a Model 12), you have to live with the fact that there's no service dept, and no readily available parts supply. But a good gunsmith can make you virtually anything you need, and many of those guns were of far better quality to start with than what's available today.

The current Daly OU's, I believe, are made by Sabatti in Italy.
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nhdblfan
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:31 pm  Reply with quote
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They are out there and just like other high quality guns you really never pay to much just sometimes buy to soon. For me that one will be a keeper in the battery of upland doubles I keep as both an investment (at least that what I tell the wife Very Happy ) and to use in the field.
That S/S 16 was made in 1924 and yes finding service is not as easy as going to the local gunsmith but if your going to own Parkers,Fox's,English doubles or Pre war Austrian/German makers that is part of the deal.There are many fine gunsmiths across the country that can keep these gems in fine shooting order.Why buy a new gun that drops in value the second you leave the dealer when you can invest in something with a soul and enjoy workmenship not available today at almost any price.When it comes time to sell you can get your money back and more if you do your research.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:47 pm  Reply with quote
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I know of three nearly new to new condition "Baby frame" 28 ga guns that have gone for in excess of 4K in the last year. These guns are considered very rare and highly prized by collectors. 28 ga and .410 Superior grade guns in 95% will now command nearly 2k. Hand engraved field grades in the same gauges and condition are bringing 1.6K and up. the machine engraved Venture grades and later Field grade guns will sell for less. However, small bores still fetch a premium even in these models.

In my area, 20 ga guns aren't much higher in price than 12 ga guns. However, finding clean ones in 92% and up is getting tougher by the day. $850 will fetch a 90% gun. $700 will get you an 85% gun. Under that condition is up for grabs to the highest bidder but probably still over $500.

I never paid more than $350 for any of mine except for the last .410 I ever bought and it wasn't that much more either. all were very clean except for one 20 gauge i bought from a second hand store in Oviedo, Fl for $35. it had white paint smeared all over it. It cleaned up nice though. I sold it years later for about $500.

I had some beauties too in like new condition. I sold them all about over 4 years ago or longer once the offers for them became too tempting.

Of course, these prices today vary region to region as well as the odd bargain that pops up. However, If you want one right now, you pay the going rate. Prepare to dig deep as compared to even 5 years ago.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:33 pm  Reply with quote
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Was going through my old 'American Rifleman' trying to help another guy and came across an ad in the Sept. 1964 that shows the Charles Daly Field, Superior , Superior O/U Trap and Skeet, Superior Wide-rib Trap, and the Model 500 SxS (looks to have BTFE and double triggers) I've got ARs through the 60s if someone would like me to check something for them.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:05 pm  Reply with quote
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Some more interesting stuff (I REALLY need to get a life)
In the Sept 68' AR there is an ad (with the same grey haired gentleman) for Charles Daly trap, skeet and field guns 'in 12, 20, 28, and 410 gauges plus the new Empire doubles...'
In the back of the mag is an ad by Parker Distributors in N.Y. showing a Charles Daly Empire Grade SxS-Retail $200/ Special $149.95
GET THIS: 16 gauge only!! 28" mod and full or 26" Imp. cyl. and mod. Single trigger.
So Charles Daly was ahead of the times and if Miroku made 16g. doubles they could do it again Idea Idea
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