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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:26 am  Reply with quote
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Not long ago I was eyeballing an Ithaca 2E at Cabela's in Rogers, MN. It's a 12ga, but it was still neato so I wanted to fondle it. I asked the dufus to open the case, which he kindly did. He then proceded to open the action and then slam it shut like it was a squeaky barn door. I realize that not everyone knows how to properly handle nice guns, so I kindly explained to him the proper way to close such a gun. He had a blank look on his face like I was speaking gibrish. Like I said, honest mistakes are fine, but people who work in the Gun Library or otherwise work with fine guns should be instructed on how to handle them.

Does this bother anyone else? Why is it so widespread? I rarely see people handle a SxS with the attention it deserves.

Thanks for letting me vent.

NR
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Twice Barrel
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:01 am  Reply with quote
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What you observed can be summed up in one word IGNORANCE.

At some point someone didn't teach this individual the proper way to handle a double gun or he/she chose to ignore it.

End of rant.
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:22 am  Reply with quote
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Unfortunately it is not always ignorance; some people believe that is the proper way to close a double gun. I was involved in a thread on the Upland Journal site a while back in which I quoted Tom Kidd out of DGJ:

"If one treats a Fox gun with respect, and uses his thumb to cushion the rapid closing action of the toplever, tens of thousands of rounds can be run through the gun with no appreciable movement or wear between the mating surfaces of the toplever and the barrel's extension lug. The bloke that [sic] slams a Fox gun shut, time after time, just to "hear her ring like a vault" should be blessed with the inability to hit the provervial broad side of a barn. Hopefully, this malady will cause him to give up shooting long before he can do serious damage to the lock-up mechanism of his Fox gun."

You won't believe the number of shooters who believe this is incorrect, and in fact believe that doubles are designed to be slammed shut! A few went off on rants about the number of times they had a shot, only to find that the gun was not cocked because they closed it too softly! I pointed out that in my years of shooting I've always closed the gun by holding the lever over, and I've never had a gun fail to cock. I just hope one of these bozos never asks to look at my gun!

Fin


Last edited by fin2feather on Thu May 04, 2006 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:38 am  Reply with quote
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Good quote. As Fin knows-most SxSs and O/Us cock on opening and indeed can fail to cock if not fully opened. But 'slamming' them OPEN will get them off face just a quickly.
About every Forum out there has a rant about one of the Cabelas' Gun Library 'experts'. Always a problem fully staffing such but still no excuse. Best approach is probably to 'gently' educate the offender but slamming a fine double shut grates on me like fingernails on a blackboard (or being cursed with hunting with a 'dog trainer' continuously blowing his whistle in my ear Confused)


Last edited by revdocdrew on Thu May 04, 2006 8:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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mdoerner
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:11 am  Reply with quote
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fin2feather wrote:
U I was involved in a thread on the Upland Journal site a while back in which I quoted Tom Kidd out of DGJ:

"If one treats a Fox gun with respect, and uses his thumb to cushion the rapid closing action of the toplever, tens of thousands of rounds can be run through the gun with no appreciable movement or wear between the mating surfaces of the toplever and the barrel's extension lug. The bloke that [sic] slams a Fox gun shut, time after time, just to "hear her ring like a vault" should be blessed with the inability to hit the provervial broad side of a barn. Hopefully, this malady will cause him to give up shooting long before he can do serious damage to the lock-up mechanism of his Fox gun."

You won't believe the number of shooters who believe this is incorrect, and in fact believe that doubles are designed to be slammed shut! A few went off on rants about the number of times they had a shot, only to find that the gunswas not cocked because they closed it too softly! I pointed out that in my years of shooting I've always closed the gun by holding the lever over, and I've never had a gun fail to cock. I just hope one of these bozos never asks to look at my gun!

Fin


I can't believe I'm hearing this. If the top lever needed a "soft stop" it would have been designed into the action (A piece of rubber would do). If the top lever does not come over all the way, and is tight not tight against the locking/mating surfaces, the gun can shoot loose over time with the mating surfaces slaming into each other under recoil, thus negating any benefit from the supposed "less wear" associated with dampening the top lever's movement with your thumb.

Anyone have a published manual from Browning, Baretta, etc. instructing the user to use their thumb to stop the top lever from slamming shut? I don't think you'll find any......

NOTE: I'm not suggesting slamming the barrels into the action shut. That could result in damage over time.

Go ahead folks, let those top lever's slam. You'll be better off in the long run.

This topic seems like it was designed to get people's ire up.....

Mike Doerner
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:24 am  Reply with quote
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Why not insert the offending bozo's pinky finger in one of the barrels, then firmly close the gun without slamming it shut. I'm sure he'll remember the lesson in gun handling untill his dying day. Laughing

Occasionally, a new gun must be firmly closed in order to seat the locking lugs well. This should not be interpreted as "slamming" the gun closed. All it takes is a quick, firm motion without any excessive force. Sometimes, the lever needs to be prodded to the left with the thumb if its obviously sitting to far right. A gentle prod will help things along. Take notice of the position of the lever once this is done. Repeat the prod as necessary until the gun closes without the assistance of your thumb. If it doesnt after a box of two of shells, then perhaps the gun should be looked at by a knowledgable professional. Use the rule of 100 here. If the gun does not close fully and properly within 100 shots, get thee to a qualified repair station pronto.

As the locking mechanism wears in, the gun will become easier to close. A well fitted gun will close with an easily identified click and a minimun of resistance. Keeping things clean and well lubed with any of the proper type greases will also limit excessive wear. The sound a properly closed, well fitted gun makes is easy to recognize. Once you hear it, just learn to reproduce it every time you close your gun. Your ear is the best guide here. you will soon learn by rote how its done.

I would not ever recommend cushioning the lever with my thumb to soften wear on a gun that is seating itself properly. This practice can lead to as much damage as slamming the gun closed. The lever should be allowed to fully engage on its own from the full force of the lever spring. Interfering with this process can cause the locking bolt or engagement to not fully seat as far as it should. Firing the gun this way can allow the shell head to get a running start at the breech face and also prevents the lock lugs from doing their job to the fullest extent. The forces from firing the gun will cause it to hinge open excessively and will introduce stresses the gun is not designed to handle.

sometimes foreign matter can cause a problem. Again, your ear is the best guide. If a well used but properly fitted gun stops fully closing with the proper click, then 99% of the time, its just dirt or debris. I carry a small toothbrush in my kit at all times. Its handy to clean out any residue or the occasional twig that ends up in a hinge gun while in the field.

If you must cushion the lever to prevent the bolt from seating too deeply, or to keep the gun from slamming shut, then your gun already is in need of repair. The lack of any resistance to the normal force needed to close the gun indicates there is too much play; get thee to a competant smith and have the gun restored. Again, the sound of the gun closing is a good guide here. A click is proper, a slam or any ringing is not. If a gun slams shut without any effort, then that too is an indication it is in need of repair. A total lack of resistance to the usual effort needed to close a well fitted gun is a sure sign of trouble.

I have seen this problem of closing too easy on any number of older trap guns long past the point where the lock bolt should have been replaced, especially on older Belgian Browning trap or skeet guns. I've even been hollered at by the owner for closing his gun too firmly after he's handed it to me to examine. I usually just apologize and never handle it again. The gun is past due on a repair job, but the owner has become so used to the feel, he thinks everything is fine. Its not. I'm amazed how long these guns will go before they finally start flying open on their own. It is a testement to both the design of the gun and the ignorance of folks who should know better. I learned long ago not to try and educate these types. They are too set in their ways or too cheap to have the gun repaired.

Once you learn the proper sound and feel of a well fitted gun closing, that is a good thing to remember when shopping for a used gun. The knowledge will save you a bunch of trouble, expense and headaches. I can't remember the last gun show I went to where i didn't handle some old "classic double" in need of a long overdue repair job. The vender usually will just eye you coldly when the gun slams shut too easily. he's trying to make you think you are at fault. You are not. The gun is already junked out and overpriced. Put it down and move on. He's a shyster for sure. Rolling Eyes

my guns are all in good repair. it taskes a bit of effort to close all of them, but none need to be slammed shut. Anyone who is dumb or careless enough to pick up one of my guns and close it with a ring is looking to get something else wrung. I carry a rope in the car for such occasions. Wink Laughing


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Thu May 04, 2006 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:29 am  Reply with quote
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Perhaps we should define our terms. No argument (and many owner's manuals recomend) that on closing the action, the top lever be allowed to return by spring pressure unimpeded by one's thumb in order to fully seat the bolting system. That would NOT be 'slamming' the action shut as in 'to throw or thrust with noisy impact' per The Random House Dictionary.
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old16
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:05 am  Reply with quote
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Guys you are right about hearring the ring when closing the gun.
Their are a couple of fellows at the skeet range that shoot sxs and when they open and close the guns you would think they were splitting wood and trying to make sure it splits in one blow. I can see these guys would take offence if anyone would say something to them but with the brand of guns they are shooting one thinks what the heck. They won't be using them very long anyway.

Since my hearring has got bad enough I don't hear the ring anymore I can feel it when I close the barrels. On a well made sxs you will feel it in you hands when everything comes together right. When It don't you can bet 99.99% of the time their is debri some where in the action.
The action sould be closed like you are handling a fine female. Gental and with pride then it will always be ready when you are.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:12 am  Reply with quote
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Well Rev, what about the guy who is all thumbs and usually ends up with one stuck in the breech and the other stuck in his eye? Any suggestions there? Laughing

Old 16, would you please help me remember what its like to handle a fine female? its been years. Crying or Very sad
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:55 am  Reply with quote
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All I know is, Tom Kidd has owned, handled, shot, and been inside of more Fox guns than most of us will see in a lifetime, and since I shoot a Fox gun, if he says it, it's good enough for me Very Happy!

Fin

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I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook
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H.H. Hipshot
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:02 am  Reply with quote
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Howdy the discussion,

Well, I realize that most of us in Cowboy Action Shooting don't shoot the "fine" doubles (at least not in competition), but some of you would be really horrified by SXS's getting slammed shut at a CAS match.

At a CAS match, the emphasis is on speed, and the doubles get opened and closed just as fast as is humanly possible. We also shuck the empties as fast as spring loaded ejectors.

I also realize that we break a lot of lugs that aren't well heat treated, and some of our guns open when fired, and top lever springs have been lightened, but thankfully, we do that mostly to Stoegers and Baikals.

I will try to remember not to treat my AH Fox or Ruger GL like that.

If you would like to see what we do to them, go to

http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html

and play the videos.

Happy trails,

HHH

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mdoerner
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:09 am  Reply with quote
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Wow! One tersely worded reply and I see two edited posts! Laughing

Sorry if I was a bit short with you guys on my earlier post, but that was one that needed to be nipped in the bud, so to speak.

Short answer: Don't slam the action closed; be firm (not fast, not slow) and let the spring tension on the top lever do it's job. L8r.

Mike Doerner
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hunshatt
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:27 am  Reply with quote
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I've stayed out of this so far , but after mike's last post I have to jump in.
Mike, these guys have worlingworths, of course the need to be slmamed shut, how else do you expect to get theose tire irons to stay shut.

Speaking of tire irons, here's a post from a different site that doesn't cater to the 16g, but you may find humor in it. The background is teh guy that owned it is John Mann, big linder collector. I've met him and he's a ok guy just a little protective of origanality of guns.

another side note, this was all percipitated by me officially cancelling my rbl, and haveing some ching rolling around in my pocket.

Also with some input from a member of this site, I'll probably not buy it

And as hard as it is to belive, the rev is almost able to keep teh cat in the bag, sorta........




From the double gun site

I found a Powell at the Kittery Trading Post. I have a few questions on it. I seems really light, on the scale it was 5 1/4 lbs. It had a stubby little forearm, the counter guy said it was a beavertail. There was a slight amount of pitting in the L barrel about 5" up from the breech. The wood was ok, 14 1/2 to a checkered butt. It seemed like the guy that traded it wasn't really fond of it as the wood had taken quite a beating.
It was marked 2" only, I guess it ment you can only use 2" shells, at least thats what the counter guy said.

So my questions, Is it worth sending it out to have the chambers cut to take 2 3/4 shells, and I'd like to send it to brieley for choke tubes.and probably a pachmar pad.
I think set up like that I could use it for shooting seaduck and preserve chuckar
I'd like to use it for shooting seaducks
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mdoerner
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 1:00 pm  Reply with quote
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hunshatt wrote:

[Text Deleted]


So my questions, Is it worth sending it out to have the chambers cut to take 2 3/4 shells, and I'd like to send it to brieley for choke tubes.and probably a pachmar pad.
I think set up like that I could use it for shooting seaduck and preserve chuckar
I'd like to use it for shooting seaducks


He-he! Why stop at 2-3/4"? Why not go for the good ole 3.5" magnum 12? You are shooting seaducks right? Make sure when you send it to Briley that you get extended choke tubes so the barrels are no shorter than 54" from the breech after they've been threaded. You are going after seaducks, aren't you? That way when you go after chuckar you have 18" barrels as well. Finally, you might want to have the blokes at Briley swap the action out for a Winchester Model 21 action. Hinge pin modificationss should be no problem. You want to have the strongest action when going after seaduck don't you?

BTW, make sure your sarcasm detector is enabled before reading the previous paragraph. Sheesh!

Mike Doerner
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hunshatt
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 1:44 pm  Reply with quote
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Sarcasm detector??? Mike, I would have hope that by now , you'd have figured my sarcam writer(forget detector) is always on... Laughing Laughing Laughing

the replys were kinda funny,(on the other site) as were some of the pm's telling what a bad idea it was to change it. John hasn't replyed yet, but I can't wait.

The 3.5 is a good idea, but what about just boring it to 10ga?? Kinda like the 16ga adapters I'm still looking for, to go in the 20 I no longer have on order.
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