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Haiwee
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:03 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 102
Location: Boulder City, NV

Well, Wolfchief, I guess it depends on what you're using the gun for. I own a Model 12 (in 12 gauge), and agree it's every bit the gun the M37 is, and maybe better (although I seem to shoot my old M37 better). On the other hand, I shoot pheasants on wildlife refuges and lots of waterfowl, where non-toxic is the rule, and can't shoot steel shot through my old Model 12.

I think sometimes the target shooters out there forget that a lot of us use our guns primarily for hunting. For me a new, steel-shot ready 16 Ga. Ithaca with choke tubes fits the bill, and I'm betting enough people will think the same as me to keep the new Ithaca in business for quite a while -- as long as the quality of the product is comparable to the old Ithaca Wink .
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Yes, I suppose I forgot to point out that if you actually use a gun for hunting and shooting the Ithaca 37 is better-no worries as to steel shot, 2 1/2 inch chambers, and other minor details.

If you want to fawn over some obsolete pumper with the big W on it that cost a lot, then the 37 might not seem better-but, it is.
Best,
Ted
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

Haiwee: I respect your opinion on the Model 37; in fact a long time ago (mid-1970's) I owned a beautiful Ithaca 37 Supreme in 24" barrel--a 12 ga.--and I enjoyed shooting it. There was nothing at all wrong with that gun, it was well-made. I traded it on a Browning BSS when that gun came out and never regretted that, because it started me on a SxS orientation that led me to the 1620 Merkel I now have.
I've shot a number of ducks over the last few years with 16, 20 and 12 ga. Model 12's; I don't just talk about it---I actually do a lot of hunting with these guns, in all kinds of weather throughout the season. The Model 12's point well for me, they are very solidly made and I can shoot them well. I never used steel in those guns, nor would I use steel at all if I could possibly avoid it. I used Bismuth No-Tox in #4, 5 and #6 and harvested every duck I deserved to get with the Bismuth. It's way better than any steel load I know of.
You could use Bismuth in your M-37 and you might like it. Bismuth is more expensive, but I think it cripples fewer ducks, and it helps me make the most of every hunting opportunity I have.

I hope you get a lot of enjoyment from the gun of your choice; the M-37 is certainly one fine American made gun.

_________________
One Man with Courage is a Majority
---Andrew Jackson
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clayflingythingy
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 311

Haiwee wrote:


I think sometimes the target shooters out there forget that a lot of us use our guns primarily for hunting. For me a new, steel-shot ready 16 Ga. Ithaca with choke tubes fits the bill, and I'm betting enough people will think the same as me to keep the new Ithaca in business for quite a while -- as long as the quality of the product is comparable to the old Ithaca :wink: .


While it is true I am primarily a sporting clays shooter I also hunt. But my contention is that there are not enuff hunters who will be willing to shell out $650-750 on a pump to support the new Ithaca. The pump market is DOMINATED by the 870 Express, the Benelli Nova, and the Mossberg all of which are low cost pumps. I see darn few blued/walnut BPS or Wingmasters for sale at gunshops. Hunters who have the $ to buy a $750 Ithaca pump are probably more likely to go on and buy a Benelli or Beretta auto or even the old standby Remington 1100 instead of the Ithaca pump. I am just calling things as I see them.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:32 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

Guys, i think you are missing a vital aspect of this discussion. Craig is not looking to compete with the big guys. He's only looking to fill a very small and continously overlooked niche. The only danger he really faces is if demand somehow outstrips supply by too big a margin. That can be lethaland has been on many a small business.

If his company can improve on the QC over the last few years of the Kings Ferry outfit, and it sounds like he's already got a handle on it, his 16, 28, and possible .410 line will do very well for high end, highly refined pumps.

As far as which is a better gun, I think both the 37 and the 12 are great guns. However, the 37 is definately slicker and quicker in my hands. The strong suit of the 12 has always been the model variations and custom features available. This is what has traditionally stirred the collector's market and kept the prices inflated even for plain jane model 12 guns.

The biggest problem with model 12 guns in 16 is finding one that hasn't had the crap beaten out of it for a fair price. If I'm going to have to spend $450 and up for a decent plain barreled 16 ga. model 12, then I'll add the extra money to get a nicely done 37 with a rib and choke tubes. Paying more than $200 for a 75% or lower gun, even in good working condition is just not a smart deal in my book. Try to find one for that price.

I've seen maybe two model 12 16 ga guns with a rib in decent shape. both were in the $750-800 price range and neither were more than 85% at that. Give me the new 37 for less money with a warranty. You can keep the used model 12 with the used gun, buyer beware aura hanging in the air, reputation or not.
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clayflingythingy
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 311

I hope the new Ithaca succeeds because I would not mind buying a 16 gage after I get some feedback from people who have purchased the new Ithaca just to make sure I'm not buying a pig in a poke. BUT, since we are advocates of a "dead" gage that makes us excentric to begin with! Buying a $650-750 pump shows how excentric we really are!

My concern is that even tho the new owner is looking to fill a niche market he may find that the niche is just too darn small to make Ithaca a viable business enterprise.

The pump seems to be hanging on as a low cost gun for those on a budget but the number of people who hunt with a pump by choice is a small one. (I remember saving lunch money to buy an 870 Express back in 1987 I think!) Most pump gun purchasers want to upgrade when economics allow them to. In my duck hunting group we have a couple of SX2's, a SBE, and one Mossberg pump. At the local preserve the only time I see someone show up with a pump is when its a corporate outing and someone else is picking up the tab. People who are paying for their hunt are packing an auto, o/u, or sxs.

So I am pessimistic about the chances of the new Ithaca surviving. Again I am not wishing any ill will as I would like to buy one myself. I'm just not sure the market is there for a pump priced as expensively as an auto.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:04 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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Most smart shotgun folks learn with time that smaller gauge pump guns have one big advantage over any small ga. autoloader; they will shoot any reasonable load(and some not so reasonable) you can stuff in a shell. Couple that with the incredible versitility a 16 has over any other easy carrying package, and that makes a properly proportioned 16 ga pump one outstanding upland and light waterfowl gun. Of course, this requires handloading. However, most savvy 16 ga users already do this out of necessity if they wish to get the most out of their guns.

I very much doubt there is a 16 ga. autoloader around that would reliably funtion with 3/4 ounce loads to 1-1/4 ounce loads without some type of barrel port modification (gas op) or spring swap. This requires extra barrels or parts, and is not convenient in the field. the same could also be said for 20, 28, and .410 guns.

A bit of promotion along these lines could educate folks to the facts. for my uses, I'll take a light weight 16 pump over any autoloader made at this time. That means a used model 12 Winny or a used or new 37 Featherlight. I'd say Craig Marshall is right where he should be doing exactly what he needs to do to suit his purpose.
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Woodcanoeguy
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:06 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 20
Location: SW Washington State

I have several older 16 gauge Ithaca Model 37's from the 1950's and they are the sweetest handling pumps I have ever shot. The only thing I don't like about the most recent Ithaca 37's is the added weight of the barell w/choke tubes makes them handle not as nicely for me. I love my Model 12, 16 ga too but the older 37's (both 16 and 20 ga) have won my heart for upland shooting when I'm wanting to take a pump out in the field.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:23 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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I discussed the added weight from the thicker walls of the new choke tubed barrels with Craig Marshall and Matt two weeks ago. I suggested they consider swamping the barrel by removing some of the outer wall thickness from the middle portion of the barrels. This is an old barrel maker's technique from the muzzleloader days. It should still work.

Another solution is use a shorter barrel. I ordered a 24 inch one for my 1969 gun. That will both reduce the weight and shift the balance point back more between my hands for a quicker, more hinge gun type feel. It will also shorten the gun to the same overall length of a 26-28 inch hinge gun. all three are a plus in my book.

I used to hunt with a Remington 1100 LT-20 with a 23.5 inch barrel for quail in Florida. The shorter barrel shifted the weight back more between the hands. It handled beautifully. This was before the 1100 upland models and Rem-chokes came out.

I cut down and jug choked the barrel myself with a piece of slotted drill rod, some metal sanding cloth, and a hand made centering collet inserted inside the bore that allowed me to swing the rod around the inside of the bore and evenly grind a taper ended recessed area about 3 inches long and 1 inch back from the muzzle. The barrel shot a weak modified pattern with standard loads and a skeet pattern with spreaders. A taped wad would help it shoot an improved modified pattern. It worked for me. I hope the 24" barreled 37 will handle as well. It should.
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