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SIXSKB
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:34 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 6

New to the 16ga community and realize that I will need to reload, (reload everything else - 20's, 12's, rifle, pistol). Reading past posts on wad substitutions wondering the following:
1. If the R16 and SP16 can be used in direct replacement of the WAA16.
2. The Federal 20S1 can be used in place of the R16 and SP16.
3. Can the 20S1 be used in direct replacement for the WAA16?
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Twice Barrel
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:31 am  Reply with quote
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Yes the Federal 20S1 can be substituted for the Win AA16 with only a slight fall off of velocity and chamber pressure in 7/8th ounce loads.

I haven't tried using the 20S1 for one ounce loads but I suspect that there might be an issue getting an extra 1/8th ounce of shot in a wad designed for 7/8th ounces if shot.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 9:32 am  Reply with quote
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In a 1 ounce load, the R16 can be subbed out for the AA16. However, the SP-16 is a 1-1/8 ounce wad and can't be subbed as is. You need to add one 28 ga. 1/8 inch thick card wad into the shot cup to convert it to 1 ounce capacity.

If you are loading a 1-1/8 ounce load calling for the WW16, then try either the R16 or SP-16 and use the one that gives the best crimp. You might have to split a card wad in half to use the SP-16. However, this weight load would be a hunting load so the minor inconvenience for loading one or two boxes should not be very significant.
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SIXSKB
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 10:18 am  Reply with quote



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Thanks for the responses. It seemed to reason that the 20S1 could sub for the WAA16 but in reloading you never know. Looking for lower pressure loads anyways, gun is 1919 or before (best guess from old catalogs). I'm presently using the 20S1 for 1oz loads in the 20ga and it works fine. Not planning on loading 1-1/8oz loads, 1oz or less only. When I need a filler for the 20ga or 12ga I've been using small pieces of Styrofoam in the bottom of the cup, no need to worry about over filling, it just compresses. No weight and makes for a nicely filled shell.
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hoashooter
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:53 pm  Reply with quote
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Watch to make sur that styrofoam doesn't work it's way into and plug up your drop tube Wink
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SIXSKB
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:48 pm  Reply with quote



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Done that.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:40 am  Reply with quote
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That is another reason to use card wads. Either that or drop in the styro after the shot is dropped. Be prepared for the occasional wierd pattern though. Anything on top of the shot can cause occasional odd external ballistics
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:02 am  Reply with quote
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Yes, you do need to watch those odd external ballistics with overshot filler. I once fired one of my Puffed Wheat loads at a rooster pheasant, overled him, and watched him catch a kernel of Puffed Wheat right out of the air. Doggone bird ought to be filling in for A-Rod at shortstop.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 7:09 am  Reply with quote
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I had a long talk with that rooster afterwards. He told me he prefers puffed rice or corn flakes. He also said you didn't overlead him; he flew through the gaping hole in the pattern all the breakfast food caused. By the way, the warden watching you mailed you a ticket for baiting the field and wants to know when you intend to pay it.
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bigric
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
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Location: Round Rock, TX

So to keep beating this...

Did we ever determine if the 20S1 was a direct substitute for the R16 in 7/8 oz applications? It's come up here and in the LPG, but I don't recall and can't find where anybody came out and said, yes, it's a direct sub.

If it isn't, has anybody worked with them enough to determine if they just need a small charge bump to work, like how the R16 needs about a 0.5 grain bump when substituting it for the WAA16?
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:50 am  Reply with quote
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BR, I worked with the 20S1 wad last September when it looked like the R16 deal was going to fall through. This was for substitution in a Remington 16 ga. hull only. The average diameter of the NEW Federal wads is .718. This is about .025" smaller than the R16. The Federal wad has a nicely shaped base which is deeply dished. It obturates well and serves to fill the average 16 ga barrel if pressures above 9000 psi are maintained. I was using 16.5 grains of Green Dot. the load crimped fairly well with a bit of dishing in, but it was workable. However, I needed to add a .32 ga card wad for 3/4 ounce loads.

I'm guessing that the velocity was about 1100 FPS or a tad more. I did not chrono the load nor did I pattern it thoroughly. Breaks on Skeet targets were good, but the breaks on trap targets were a bit more dicy than 7/8 ounce loads based on the R16 wad. This might indicate that the 20S1 wad is best used in close. The wads were pretty well mangled after being shot, more so than the R16 wads. It tends to indicate that compression from firing and the added stress on the wad from foreshortening to a much greater degree in a 16 ga. bore might be taking its toll on overall performance. I also found much more plastic wad fouling in my barrels from the 20S1 and the wad's exterior was also badly fouled with soot so gas blow by is probably happening to some degree.

the 20S1 used in a Remington 16 ga. hull needs a bit more powder and should also be used with the faster burning powders suitable for the 16 ga. Initial pressure must be high enough to ensure the obturation of the base wad for it to work well. Since a 32 ga filler wad must be used for 3/4 ounce loads, and since the R16 deal went through, I quit using the 20S1 wad. However, it is not a bad alternative if you can't get any R16 wads, at least for close work. However, for all around dependability, there is no good substitute for the real thing. If you have the choice, i'd advise sticking with the R16.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:16 am  Reply with quote
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Using Unique and a Win 209 primer, I tried both SP-16 and R-16 in the black Rem hull, 7/8 oz loads. Results were very similar. Pressure actually about 400 psi higher, and velocity about 25 fps faster, with the R-16, but both were under 8300 psi and in the 1165-1190 fps velocity range. The only difference, of course, is that you need to use more filler with the SP-16. But if you've got 'em, you might as well use 'em.
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bigric
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm  Reply with quote



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I tried the 20S1 in the Rem hull over 16.5 grains of American Select today with 7/8 oz #8 and no filler. Dished crimps. Looks like even this wad needs a filler. I guess I'll just stick to card wads and using the 20S1 in my 20 ga reloads. Or were you putting 1 oz loads on top of it?
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:59 am  Reply with quote
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BR, no, I was using 7/8 ounce of shot. However, I was also using Green Dot and not AS. however, AS is actually bulkier than GD so it should have helped fill things up a bit. I mentioned above that I had slightly dished crimps. However, they were workable. By deepening the crimp starter which puts more hull plastic into the crimp, and setting my crimp station to set a slightly deeper crimp, I was able eliminate most of the dishing.

The deeper crimp helped to generate enough initial pressure to help the wad obturate. However, it was tough on the shell mouths and caused premature hull failure, so its a trade off. Thats another reason to stay with a proper 16 ga wad if possible.

Overall, I'd say a new 16 ga. wad designed for 3/4 to 7/8 oz loads would be the ideal answer. A wad that is .650" in Diameter that has a 13/16ths ounce capacity, which splits the difference between 3/4 and 7/8 ounce would work well for both. The compression legs should have enough spring in them to work with either weight load. The wad base skirt should also be flared or tapered outwards and maybe .655" diameter. This would allow the wad to work in both tapered wall and straight walled cases. We can only ask and hope.

Until then, I'll stick with the R16 and 28 ga card wads. Its doing the job better for light loads than anything else I've tried. As they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 4:51 am  Reply with quote
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The combination of the Aussie Win hull and the Gulandi wad produces quite a bit lower pressure (and similar velocity) than anything using the black Rem hull, regardless of what wad you use with 7/8 oz loads. Just depends on what you like and what you're looking for.
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