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Slidehammer
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 7:37 am  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy wrote:
Overall, I'd say a new 16 ga. wad designed for 3/4 to 7/8 oz loads would be the ideal answer. A wad that is .650" in Diameter that has a 13/16ths ounce capacity, which splits the difference between 3/4 and 7/8 ounce would work well for both. The compression legs should have enough spring in them to work with either weight load. The wad base skirt should also be flared or tapered outwards and maybe .655" diameter. This would allow the wad to work in both tapered wall and straight walled cases. We can only ask and hope.


16gg,

I'd like the shotcup deep enough to fully contain maybe 15/16 ounce and the cushion section long and flexible enough that 3/4 to 7/8oz could be loaded without fillers if wanted. The over-powder cup could be designed as an AA type with deep as well as tapered gas sealing lips. There is absolutely no reason the start of the lips couldn't be .665" and taper to .650-.655" at the solid section. I believe that is what you were saying. I see little reason to worry about tapered hulls as even those who have "ratholed" them will run out; the hope of Rem STS hulls is dismal; so we are stuck with straight walled............. I have seen the black Remington hull referred to as tapered, but the new one I took apart had .032" walls full length....... They do have a tighter I.D. than others though.

I'd like to see a wad made out of ethanol!!

edit:.......... As long as we need to make the molds, an anti-migration ring molded into the overpowder cup would be nice! If the Italians (as in Gualandi) can engineer in these niceties, why not us?

Slidehammer
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:27 pm  Reply with quote
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The 15/16 ounce cup probably would not work well for the smaller shot charges. To get the proper crimp and good ballistics, the tops of the petals should never be trapped in the crimp folds or perimeter crease. This is why most wad cups allow a bit of shot to sit above the petal tops. Its the top layer of shot that opens the crimp and not the wad. Once the wad petals obturate to fill the bore beyond the shell mouth and chamber, the shot settles back into the space provided and is protected if the wad cup is big enough to allow this. A shot cup that allows the 3/4 ounce charge to sit even with or a tad above the petal tops would work for loads up to 1 ounce for close work. We also already have several 1 ounce wads. Why ask for something we don't really need.

A flared bottom of .655 will easily fill a .670 i.d. hull with a bit of firm seating pressure on the powder charge to flare it more. There should be no migration if the wad is seated properly. A firmly seated wad is already necessary for proper powder ignition and burn. An anti-migration ring really isn't needed with a nicely flared and dished bottom section. Many folks have been using WW12AA and Remington figure 8 wads in the roomier 12 ga polyformed hulls for many years now. Powder migration is a non-issue if proper seating pressure is used with either of these wads. Its a simple matter of knowing how to get it done.
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Slidehammer
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:27 pm  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy wrote:
The 15/16 ounce cup probably would not work well for the smaller shot charges. To get the proper crimp and good ballistics, the tops of the petals should never be trapped in the crimp folds or perimeter crease. This is why most wad cups allow a bit of shot to sit above the petal tops. Its the top layer of shot that opens the crimp and not the wad. Once the wad petals obturate to fill the bore beyond the shell mouth and chamber, the shot settles back into the space provided and is protected if the wad cup is big enough to allow this. A shot cup that allows the 3/4 ounce charge to sit even with or a tad above the petal tops would work for loads up to 1 ounce for close work. We also already have several 1 ounce wads. Why ask for something we don't really need.

A flared bottom of .655 will easily fill a .670 i.d. hull with a bit of firm seating pressure on the powder charge to flare it more. There should be no migration if the wad is seated properly. A firmly seated wad is already necessary for proper powder ignition and burn. An anti-migration ring really isn't needed with a nicely flared and dished bottom section. Many folks have been using WW12AA and Remington figure 8 wads in the roomier 12 ga polyformed hulls for many years now. Powder migration is a non-issue if proper seating pressure is used with either of these wads. Its a simple matter of knowing how to get it done.


Well 16gg,

You commented once on engineering background. That and "design", years of mechanical stuff, gives that person a strong idea as to what is good and not so good.
That said I DO NOT LIKE OVERLY LONG PETALS! BUT>>>> I am also a tester........ And I have been caught more than once on what I think is a problem and what tests out as one........
Forgive me for going 12 bore a moment..... Consider the Remington Tgt12 wad. It has a shotcup for 1 1/8oz. But even Rem loads it with 1oz in factory loads as well. They pattern absolutely beautiful; I know, I tested. It doesn't end there..... I have a friend that reloads them with only 7/8oz. You pick up a fired shot wad and you can see the top 1/4" of the petals pristine..... He has tried the AA12L (gray) wad which has a short 7/8oz cup. His loads don't pattern anywhere near as good as the long petaled Tgt12! Go figure!

Back to the 16!!!! I have shot many the SP16 wad at the pattern plate to be sure. I like the Federal hull but not with this wad! Powder migration is horrible! Wad pressure doesn't cure it enough that a rough Idaho road won't "walk" the powder right around, any powder by the way, big or small. Powder migration rings are a good idea and an easy design feature when molds are made. It matters not that umpteen million AA's have been shot either. There is not a detriment to the migration ring even if its real benefit may be to someone on a rough road somewhere. I like insurance when I design! "Halfway" design is getting close to the other "half".
The very best way to use the SP16 in the Federal hull is to cut out the cushion section and use the overpowder cup, then filler wads, and then the shotcup. Can't even get 7625 to migrate now! By the way.........This is the BEST patterning you can get from the SP16 by the way. How do I know? I tested. Yes, before anyone says it; it is a major time consuming pain! I only load one 1oz load this way that has hard sevens aboard. It is my long range pigeon load. I even cut the petals back to a one ounce shotcup at first. What's another hour or two? I quit doing this however. At the patterning plate there was absolutely no difference! It is a great load that out patterns many, many, tested against it; all in my case and why I still take the time to cut the wads.... But the full SP16 petal length has no effect whatsoever on patterns with 1oz of shot aboard. How do I know? I tested!

Bottomline, we need a 16 gauge wad with an adequate cushion section length without fillers to use down to 7/8oz. Oh yeah, and a powder migration ring for those of us on rough roads. (I even tested powder migration over the chronograph by PURPOSELY adding a weighed amount of the powder charge ABOVE the overpowder cup into the cusioning section of the wad....) But that's another story!

Slidehammer
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:48 pm  Reply with quote
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The gas check on the R16 and the SP-16 are first generation designs. the skirts are miniscule compared to more modern designs. The 20S1 wad is a later design that uses a deep cup with a generous skirt. If put firmly down on the powder, it flares so the powder does not migrate in a 16 ga Remington hul. A deep dished cup with a generous and easily compressed flared skirt should work for both hulls. The AA wads were a study on the shortcomings of the original Remington line and an imprvement for the same reason. that is why the AA16 wad is slightly more efficient than the R16 and why the R16 generates a bit less pressure with equal powder and shot drops.

I used to place a 1 inch disc of polyethylene baggie material over the gas cup of an SP-16 wad for use in Federal hulls. I'd lay it centered on top of the wad guide and seat the wad normally. It acts as an anti-migration check and gets blown into the bottom of the wad on ignition. It was simple to use and it worked great in the roomier 16 gauge cases.

Now I have a stash of 1-1/4 ounce 16 gauge Herter's wads from the mid 1970's. They have a .760 diameter and fill out the bigger cases nicely. a 28 ga. card wad converts them to 1-1/8 ounce for super fast loads over 1300 FPS. Otherwise, I just use the SP-16 in the Remington case for 90% of my 1-1/8 ounce loads up to nearly 1290 FPS.

As far as the TGT wad, I've found that it fills to the top and a bit with a true 1 ounce drop of #8 magnum shot. The cup is a bit shallower than the Figure 8, 1-1/8 ounce wad. The patterns are good because the wad petals never touch the crimp while the shell is initially opening. Any time the petals contact the outer crease or rim of the crimp at this instant, they can get trapped and peeled back exposing the shot to the forcing cone and bore. this has been proven not by me, but by the original designers of these wads and the reason for the two wads. This may not happen 100% of the time. However, just a 10% occurance rate can cost a registered trap shooter too much in lost targets from poor patterns--this where one target more often than not will win or lose the shoot. It can also cost a hunter a hard found pheasant on a slow day. This peel back phenomenon is also why using filler wads in the shot cup to raise the level of the shot slightly above the petals for short shot columns is the most recommended and effective solution in converting bigger capacity wads for lighter shot loads.

I use the WW12L wad for all 7/8 ounce work. Its expressly designed for the job and works perfectly for me in the Remington STS case. I also use the fastests powders like Red dot and 700X and a deeper than normal crimp set for all 1200 FPS or slower loads to guarentee a good pressure curve and proper obturation of the wad upon ignition. Patterning is superb--certainly more than adaquate for singles practice and doubles first targets. The clay birds are literally crushed to powder in mid-air with any decently centered hit.

I prefer a new wad that will work down to 3/4 ounce loads w/o fillers for the 16. If you've not tried them, then you are in for a treat. They pattern and hit beautifully out of a 16. They act exactly like the 7/8 ounce load in a 12. My approach to loading them is exactly the same except I use #9 shot for skeet. They make skeet shooting a real joy in guns down to 6 lbs weight with no recoil pain or discomfort. they smoke the targets better than a 28 ga due to the very short shot swarm or string. They drop smaller game birds like quail, dove, woodcock, rail, and snipe well too for the same reason with #8 shot. They are like lightning on snipe which are probably one of the toughest birds to hit regularly.

Its a free country. You go after what you want. I'll go after what I want. good luck.
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