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sbs470
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:18 am  Reply with quote
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Location: sheffield.Tasmania Australia

I have noticed over a period of time that whenever I see a photo of a pointer /setter it has it's tail pointed towards the sky

But when I leaf through books and magazines of another era they show the afore mentioned dogs with their tais in a straight line with their backs,when I look up from this screen and glance at the mantel piece whith the bronze pointer all muscle and concentration with his near side fore foot gently lifted his tail is in line with his back as he has been for eighty odd years as are the two china figurines one either side, one a Royal Doulton and the other a Royal Beswick both in the same position.Indeed even cartoons portray the gun dog in a dead straight line.

Being curious I got the Breeds Standard from the library .nearly all pointer/setters must have the tail in line with the back,some may have the tail slighty elevated but none are allowed to have the tail in a vertical position.Any deviation from the standard indicates an inferior dog .

Why then do owners,breeders and trainers allow dogs to go afield with their tails pointed rampantly in the air.
do breeders sell any dog that they breed,do trainers take the soft option,or has the show ring and the Kennel club let hunters down.

Dear member
this is an observation that I have noticed over the years,so please don't shoot the messanger.
I know that any comment will be carefully thought out and delivered with calm and balanced judgement

good shooting
sbs470
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 6:09 am  Reply with quote
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Coincidentally, I'm dealing with this topic in an upcoming article in Pointing Dog Journal. You're correct. If you look at old books, including photos of national field trial champions, the dogs do not have a 12 o'clock tail. Barely above horizontal in many cases, when on point.

The 12 o'clock tail seems to be the real rage these days, particularly with pointer people, to a somewhat lesser degree with setter people. That's definitely something they look for in a trial dog. I think it's pretty much fad and fashion. But the dogs don't carry their tails that way when they're running. They may carry them somewhat higher than in the past, but where you really notice a difference is when they point. Then they're typically straight up.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:24 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Glendale, AZ

'CALM AND BALANCED' Question That's going to be a challenge for some of us (maybe 16gg is off shooting for the holiday and will miss this thread Wink) For AGGITATED AND IRRATIONAL (and potentially assaultive) you might try this topic over on SS BB on the 'Hunting and Dogs' forum Shocked

Derry Argue wrote a neat book 'Pointers and Setters', Swan Hill Press, 1993. ISBN 1 85310 239 3 Originally published in the UK. Lots of neat old pics showing just what you've described. One of my female setters, who turned into my 'show off' dog, still had the 'setting' gene as she would occasionally squat down on point exactly like the dog depicted across from p. 41.
As Larry said, the high tail is mostly a meaningless affectation BUT THOSE SETTER DOGS SURE ARE PRETTY ON POINT Very Happy
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:23 pm  Reply with quote
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Pointing dogs in the UK . . . VERY different critters from the ones we have here. They're mostly like our older style dogs, from before WWII. Much lower tails, closer working also than the typical American all age dogs especially. Saw some of them (including a couple of British/Irish field trial champs, one of which was an Irish setter) when I was over there in 2001. I was impressed, but I don't think American field trialers would be.
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Rick Grimes
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Jun 2004
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Location: thick and uncivilized places in the Allegheny Mts.

Ryman-type setters still point with a level or nearly level tail. Do a google search for Ryman setters and you will find that not all setter people are excited by a 12 oclock tail.

Rick


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Going into coverts becomes less a chase with the sole purpose of killing; it remains important to find game but the gratification-and I keep coming back to that word-is in the beauty of finding it. George Bird Evans A Dog, A Gun, And Time Enough.
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Sebascodegan
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:16 pm  Reply with quote
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I'd have to agree with Rick. I have a six month old pup out of Decoverly Kennel (Ryman-type) which exibits a 9 / 10 o'clock tail. This is in keeping with what Ken Alexander, who runs Decoverly's, had told me to expect when I was looking into purchasing a pup from his kennel.

The DeCoverly line is bred for walk up hunters, not field trialers which suits me just fine.

Here's a link to a photo of my pup at five months:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6db06b3127cce89f41d298e3500000016108AbNGjRq5YuN


Steve
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hoashooter
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:42 pm  Reply with quote
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I just couldn't let this pass----a Lab's tail will just curl up till ya le 'em get the bird----or he rolls over and ya almost step on it Wink
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Parker Trojan
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:46 pm  Reply with quote
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In the early 1900's, the tail slightly above horizontal was referred to as "the Osthaus tail" after the famous German painter of dog portraits. I don't have to worry about tail elevation, my Wirehairs lost their tails in a buzzsaw. Cool
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TJC
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 3:29 am  Reply with quote
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Parker,
I'm with you. My Drahthaars don't have much tail back there but what they do have is straight out when on point.

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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:48 pm  Reply with quote
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Can't say I've ever seen a dock-tail with a 12 o'clock stub, but some are a good bit higher than others. I find it interesting to look at the many pictures I have of my first gsp, Heidi. Throughout most of her long career, she pointed with about a 10:30 tail (and had a fairly long stub). Her last season, when she was 12, it would have been straight out had it not drooped at the end. It's really quite a contrast.

Her grandpup, Donner, points with a level tail (also has a pretty significant stub), as did his sire. He's very cautious and occasionally false points, but when he's sure he has the bird nailed, there's not much doubt. You get close to him and you'll see his entire body quivering.
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TJC
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 1:09 pm  Reply with quote
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Larry,
For sure on the docked tailed dogs. Mine have about 6-7 tails (I'm guessing but I know I can grab it) and they are straight out when on point. Most of the time I get a real nice leg lift too. Very Happy

No Huns, the front leg is lifted, not the back one. Wink

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tjwalker
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:02 am  Reply with quote
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My late setter had both styles...I tried to figure out why without any success. I guess it's like why when on point he sometimes cocked a front leg. He looked beautiful anytime he was on point, and the birds were always there. I have no preference as to how they carry their tails on point, but a few times that 12 0'clock position made it easier to spot in heavy cover. I'll aways remember his last point...tail high!
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Ga16ga
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:49 am  Reply with quote
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Tail set is a popular topic at field trials. The folks that like a 12 0'clock tail, say it is stylish, and maybe it is, but it has been in the past few years that it has become stylish. As noted the old pictures show the lower tail set.

I'm a Gordon owner and there is no agreement on tail set. Some feel that the dog is not stylish if the tail is in line with the nose & back. Others feel that a 12 o'clock is the style of the setter and is proper. There is also the believe that a dog's head AND tail should be held high.

In some of the short tail dogs, you can sometimes observe the tail twitching. I'm told it's excitement, but if you extend the tail to setter/pointer length that movement becomes flagging and is seen as a lack of intensity!

FT judges have told me that some setter owners have told tham that the tail must be at 12 o'clock. Trying to stack the odds in their favor I guess.

About the only thing I don't like to see is the tail tucked between their legs, or the tail drop as the handler approaches. Usually indicates heavy handed training and/or too much use of the shock collar.
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Citori16
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:27 am  Reply with quote
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IMHO, tail high is the recent trend. I can definitely see the advantage but personally I prefer straight out, or "Osthaus". I just think it looks classier, and when I think of a dog on point I remember the "Bugs Bunny" cartoons where the dogs would point straight in line, head down, and then get clobbered by an anvil or something. Laughing

I worked my dog to have a "high cracking tail", and got her to do it, but it just seemed so unnatural for her that I didn't reinforce. I hunt for me and my dog, usually alone, and when I do hunt with someone it's not to brag about anything I have or can do, though some playful ribbing is to be expected. Smile

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emiller
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:58 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 May 2006
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Location: Michigan

With the pointer, AKC dogs are bigger and point with a 9:00 tail. They are inline with what you find in the U.K. FDSB dogs run smaller and have a high tail. That being said, my FDSB pointer is something of a through back dog. She points at 9:00 to 10:00 and has heavy liver ticking. She looks like a classic early 20th cent. pointer.
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