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old16
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:11 pm  Reply with quote
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Wolfchief wrote:
TJC: I think you have hit on some very sound reasoning there. All of the research we do at the Bank, in terms of what the customer wants, points to CONVENIENCE as a top priority. With everything else going on in the average person's life, for a product or item to resonate positively in the consumer's mind, it has to be easy to access, quick to perform, low or at least "reasonable"cost, and convenient to "feed" or service.

Access to 16 gauges, information about them, and acquisition of ammo, is anything BUT convenient, and usually not particularly low cost. And if we were honest with ourselves, we might admit that while we consider the 16 is "best", would the average person feel that the extra hassle is worth it for what they might perceive to be a slight increase in performance?

Wolfichief
Your are right in many ways. But I never considered myself average. I never followed the crowd just because the rest do. I also figure if anyone shoots a 16ga for their primary shooting and those lightweight cannons that have a reciever built around a 12ga shell the size of a railroad iron I don't care what king of metal it is. It still is a cannon in most peoples hands for confidence and not skill. 16ga shooters are above average and if you shoot an elsie your above all the rest.

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gunflint charlie
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:58 am  Reply with quote
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Price is set to maximize profit regardless of gauge. The lower cost of 12 and 20 ga. -- and sale prices -- is supply/demand reflecting the size of the markets. Unit cost and prices for long-run production is less because fixed costs like production setup are spread over many more units. With larger inventories to move, seasonally reduced sale prices compete for buyers to move more inventory and increase total profit despite smaller margins.

Sellers don't benefit from reducing price on 16s -- they expect to maximize profit on their small inventories at full retail. With a limited market and small inventory, reduced prices won't increase sales volume, they'll just sell out their stock faster at the lower margin.
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TJC
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:08 pm  Reply with quote
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gunflint charlie wrote:
Price is set to maximize profit regardless of gauge. The lower cost of 12 and 20 ga. -- and sale prices -- is supply/demand reflecting the size of the markets. Unit cost and prices for long-run production is less because fixed costs like production setup are spread over many more units. With larger inventories to move, seasonally reduced sale prices compete for buyers to move more inventory and increase total profit despite smaller margins.

Sellers don't benefit from reducing price on 16s -- they expect to maximize profit on their small inventories at full retail. With a limited market and small inventory, reduced prices won't increase sales volume, they'll just sell out their stock faster at the lower margin.


Like I said before, they're sticking it to the 16'ers. Evil or Very Mad

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AmarilloMike
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:50 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 370
Location: Amarillo, Texas

I spend nine hours a day three days a week four months a year hiking over sandy rough rattlesnake ridden country just to put several ounces of meat on the table each week. In addition to that time I spend thousands of dollars a year on my birdlease, gas, birddogs, birddog vet bills, bird dog training, birddog antivenom, bird dog collars, etc... This is irrational. Why do I have to use the most rational gun available in this obviously obsessive irrational pursuit?

The rational money is in the drive-up lane at Kentucky Fried.

The most rational way to bust a hundred clays is to lay a box of them on the ground and back over them with your truck several times. Why do I have to bust clays with the absolutely most effective gun/gauge combination in this irrational pursuit?

Go to your nearest WalMart and buy some 3/4ounce 12 gauge loads. I can buy 28 gauge #8 3/4 ounce loads at my nearest Walmart. Go to Walmart and try to buy 7/8 ounce 12 gauge loads. I can get several different 7/8 loads in 20 gauge at my WalMart.

Last fall I went Hun hunting in Swift Current, Saskatchewan, Canada. The SecurityNazis at my local airport made me leave my 16 gauge reloads in my truck. The local sporting goods store in Swift Current had 16 gauge 1oz 7-1/2s in stock. I sincerely doubt they had any 1oz 12 gauge loads and having shot 1-1/8 oz loads through my 12gauge 6pound Browning Superlight Feather (my backup gun) I was very very glad to see them.

I am not knocking 12 gauges. They just aren't the be-all do-all in my opionion.

Mike
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
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TJC and Gunflint: You are both right. The market reflects prices based on what sells, and that's the reason 12 and 20 gauges are cheaper; ie "more convenient" to acquire. For most people who follow the path of least resisitance, it's a lot more work to buy a 16 ga. loader, track down hulls and loads, etc---not to mention finding a GOOD 16 ga.gun to shoot them in. WE know where to start looking for that stuff but a lot of people don't.
It's easier to just go to Wal Mart, buy a 12 or 20 ga. 870 Express or Mossberg 500, get the 7/8 oz. cheapie loads and bang away.

And I stress that there's NOTHING wrong with that either; it just isn't for me.....but as long as that's how a large share of the market thinks, it's probably wishful thinking to dream about many more new 16's coming on the market.

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MGF
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:40 pm  Reply with quote
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Well said, WolfChief. I think that sums it up about perfectly.

Personally, I'm glad to see B. Rizzini offering true-frame 16s, and I still hope Caesar Guerini comes through with a 16. No, the Italian imports aren't for everyone -- we all know how 16gg generally feels about 'em Wink -- but at least they're a sign that some manufacturers still think "our" niche market is worth some new products.

And now, just to fly in the face of the 16 uber alles trend, a word or several in defense of the 12, or at least my 12s.

> I'm holding onto my 686 Ultralight 12 ga. until the end. It is neither as lithe nor as pretty as my new 16, but it is has been an utterly reliable bird gun and it can be easily fed from the store shelf with anything from 7/8 ounce to 1 1/4 oz loads. We've made some long walks and some good shots together and put a lot of birds on the table (and friends' tables). Which I guess is a way of saying that while I hope my new 16 becomes my sweetheart everyday field gun, life could be worse than having a light, true-shooting 12 as a backup or loaner gun.

> There are times ... some of the clay games come to mind ... when I'm very glad to have my monstrous (8lbs or so, anyway) 12 ga 687 SP II with 30" tubes. Shot sporting clays today, and some of those presentations were looong. I will without embarrassment choose the heavier gun, the bigger bore and the 1 1/8 oz loads for that job.

> There's a sweet little used Beretta 12 ga SxS with 26" tubes, dual triggers, choked IC/M at a local gun store that keeps talking to me. I try to block it out, but it's still whispering.

God help me, I love 'em all ... and I don't even have a .410 yet!

Sorry about all that heresy. There's something wrong with me. I just can't help but want to shoot more shotguns and more shells. All sizes. I'm a sick lad.
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TJC
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:39 am  Reply with quote
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MGF,
If you are a sick lad, I have a feeling we all have a bit of the same desease. LOL

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old16
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:36 pm  Reply with quote
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They say your halfway cured when you admit your problem. I admitted it once. I was able to stay away for a few years. Oh I did not get rid of my guns. I keep them around just to prove I could do it. Then that one day one of my buddies asked me to go shoot some trap. He said he hadn't shot in years and lets just go for a couple of rounds. Well I new I could do it and put back the guns in the safe when I'm done and that will be it.
That was it for that weekend. I told my wife I'm not going to get back into it like I did before where I was shooting 3-4 time aweek. That was about 3 skeet guns and two trap guns ago. Sorry make that 4 skeet gun after this weekend. Dang it thats it no more.

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brdhnt
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:07 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Concordia, Kansas

Years ago, when revolvers were the most common weapon carried by law officers, I was running a quarterly qualification shoot for my department and the neighboring department. Of 12 officers on the range that day, there were ten revolvers and two .45 autos (mine and another officer from my department).

It was a typical early spring day in SW Colorado. Snow showers, sleet, wind,
freezing rain, etc. The two relays of revolver shooters had a miserable time.

When Bill and I got ready to qualify with our .45's, the sun came out, the wind died down and the temperature went up by about ten degrees. I maintained that it proved that God shoots a .45.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I'll know I'm in Heaven when God comes walking down the road with a 16 gauge over his arm, followed by a couple of Brittanies and says: "Let's go bird hunting!"

By the way Ted, until we can meet and assess the proper fines, you need to just pick members of the board to send your non-16 gauge guns to so we can function like AA sponsors and remove the temptation. Laughing

TMB
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