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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:57 pm  Reply with quote
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I also have handled and shot the two guns side by side and with more than one of each too. There is a decided edge of smoothness and speed to the 37. It is plain slicker to pump than the model 12 and that is in any gauge both are made. This is not just a subjective judgement. It simply takes less effort and a shorter stroke to cycle the 37. Anyone can try this. I've also handled the '97 Winchester. It too is both smooter and faster to pump than the Model 12, but not quite as slick as the Remington/Ithaca gun.

Model for model, The 37 is also lighter. As for durability issues, I've seen more loose model 12 guns than model 37 guns. All one has to do to see this is visit a gun shop that has a selection of both guns that are at least 60 years old. The takedown feature of the Model 12 is more complicated and more subject to wear, damage, and abuse. It is also far more expensive to repair, which usually means it does not get repaired, it just gets traded for something else.

The idea that the model 12 will take down into two approximately equal halves was a feature more appreciated in the days when cars had rear boots instead of trunks. Today, most folks do not bother and just keep pumps and autos in long cases. That one is now moot.

The only real and appreciable advantage the model 12 has on the 37 is ease of loading at a target range. Skeet had a tremendous impact on shotgun shooting in the USA, especially when it came to gun design. However, that impact was not fully felt until the late 1920's when the game really began to take off. That is why the 31 was developed. It too has side ejection but the same basic bolt throw of the 37. When it hit the market, it fairly trounced the model 12 on the skeet fields. It was and still is decidedly faster and easier to pump. Most skeet shooters immediately picked up on this point. The record books will attest to this. It also came in 16 ga too, which until the 4 gauge, gun up form of the game evolved, was easily as popular for skeet as the 12 ga gun. It was lighter and quicker to the shoulder. It was then that the popularity of the model 12 began to wane and not in 1963 as most folks would assume. Skeet impacted both the target ranges and the game fields.

Not so in trap. The model 12 was more popular there for singles and handicap shooting. Why, becauser the average Model 12 with a 30" high ribbed barrel is decidedly more muzzle heavy than any model 37 or model 31 of any comfiguration and heavier overall too. It was and is this barrel hang and added, recoil eating weight that makes it so smooth to point out singles targets. Unlike skeet, which was back then shot from low gun and with a 0-3 second delay, trap is a game of mounted gun and minimal move to the target. Most rap targets are not swung on nearly are much as a skeet target.

But today, better guns like the K-80 unsingle, the KS-5, the Perazzi TM1/TMX, or MX series combo guns, The BT-99, BT-100, The Silver Sietz, Lutjics, and Kolars such pretty much dominate the trap game.( I was at the Mass State Trap shoot all weekend. There were perhaps 500 plus shooters. Exactly one was shooting an old model 12, a Y series.) The reason is because most of the trap model 12 guns have worn out and loosened up beyond salvaging years and years ago. They just would not take the pounding the game requires of any gun. Even the model 1100 and 870 are more popular as well as the newer Beretta autoloader trap models. Why, because they are more durable, and parts are cheaper and easier to get.

As for trap doubles where a good side by side comparison could have easily decided the issue of which gun was smoother and faster to pump, that debate was dead aborning. The model 32 Remington hit the trap world like a thunderclap. It is still with us today as the K-80 trap gun and it fairly rules the trap doubles fields along with the ever present Perazzi MX O/U guns.

I think we will probably never come to any agreement here. This one has been argued around more skeet and trap fields, hunting camps etc, than you or all of us together will ever sit in on and probably longer than we will live too. Both are good guns. I think I said that. For upland work, I'll take the 16 ga. 37 anytime. Shoot em if you got em.


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:13 pm  Reply with quote
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We don't have an icon of "guy with gun pointed to head" but if we get one, post it here.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:21 pm  Reply with quote
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Cool


Last edited by MaximumSmoke on Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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old16
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:03 am  Reply with quote
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It don't take much to explain the Mod. 12 ( style and grace.)

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:28 am  Reply with quote
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First off, I do not shoot icons. I shoot guns. Second, I never said the model 12 was a bad gun. What I said was that for my purposes, upland birds and classic low gun skeet, the 37 is better. In 16 ga. it is more compact, lighter, slicker, and quicker--more suitable for low gun mounting and shooting for multiple targets like skeet doubles, a covey flush, or those times when several pheasant or grouse go up at the same time. It is simply more capable of handling the possibilities I'm faced with in that venue. I never said it was the most popular or biggest selling gun. I could care less frankly.

As for gun fit and balance, I can take care of that and have. So its irrelevent. Gun fit is a personal thing no factory can adaquately address. Gun balance is a simple matter of weight distribution. Anyone with a little smarts, judicious barrel selection, and maybe a bit of lead weight can adjust the gun's balance.

Which is prettier? As long as either gun is acceptably nice looking, I could care less. I'm looking at the target, not the gun. I do not think either is ugly. Both are acceptably nice looking. Shooting is not a beauty contest, although a nicely executed move to the target is graceful and beautiful to watch to another shooter. I regularly outshoot guys with gorgeously appointed guns. Again, from a shooting standpoint-- irrelevent.

Both guns would serve about equally well in a duck blind, for rabbits, for squirrel, for deer hunting etc. The model 12 is better on a trap field.

Which is more rugged? They are about equal here. Both lock up in the receiver and wear at about the same rate. Neither are as rugged as a modern pump that locks up in the barrel like the 870 design. However If I had to say which would last longer, I'd have to give the edge to the 37. Its simpler mechanically.

Both are functionally dependable. Again, more model 37s have served in battle than model 12s, for far longer, so the edge goes to the 37 here. One does not stake one's life on an unreliable weapon. Claiming that point for the model 12 is also invalid. Martial history overules you.

When I pick up a gun to shoot, it is a tool. Pure and simple. I pick the right tool for the job I.E. the best one I have available. I'm a pragmatist when it comes to shooting. I shoot a Perazzi TMX for trap singles/handicap and an MX-8 for trap doubles. I think both are excellent guns for the job. I would not use either for upland hunting, skeet, nor waterfowling. In essence, form follows function. That is how my perceptions are formed--from the shooting reality I'm faced with, not the warm fuzzy feeling I get from lovingly stroking my gun while watching hunting videos or from gazing at my collection of icons. I shoot them, clean them, put them up until next session-- then go reload shells if I have the time to get ready for the next session. I'm a shooter/hunter first, last, and always.

I could care less how many of each gun was sold at some time past in history. That is perhaps the poorest way to judge a gun for its merits in a particular venue. There are far too many factors that come into play when we simply quote production numbers of guns made and guns sold.

Relative company size is one factor that affects all others. Winchester was the biggest, most famous American repeater gun company prior to WWII. So that means they had the edge in production capacity, available personnel, industry politics, public perception, advertizing budget, capital investment, sales force, and sales network, availability, societal preferences and prejudices, relative price, etc. It does not mean they always made the best guns nor does it mean the model 12 was the best pump gun for every puppose. It was a great duck gun when waterfowling was king. It would serve well on pheasants too. however, there were other guns as good or better. The A-5 is one. Winchester would not pay John Browning a fair price for the rights and shot themselves squarely in the foot there.

the model 12 also sold at a much lower profit margin too. Winchester was big enough to absorb the hit. However, that stratagy finally caught up with them after WWII. It's what killed them eventually. You can't give away the house to bolster your reputation and survive. All you can do that way is die famously. the competition was spending on R&D, gearing up for the future, while Winchester was busy maintaining its rep with past glories and subsidized pricing.

There are literally thousands of examples of different items I could point to to show that the article in question is a better one for the purpose than the more popular one it is being compared to. So trying to club the 37 with the model 12 production numbers does not cut it here. Frankly, its an invalid argument when comparing the relative merits of one gun to another for a specific purpose.

I pointed out that the model 37/17 was an inferior target gun because it did not have side loading and the convenience and sense of safety that feature offers to the target shooter. The 17 was never made in 16 ga either, so it was not a top skeet gun, nor was it nearly as versitile. It was not made as a 12 ga either, so it could not compete in waterfowling overall. Yes, it was a niche gun. It was a good little upland gun, better than the model 12 in this niche. It is quicker and slicker, 20 ga against 20 ga. Would a trap shooter care? Hardly. If he shot a pump gun, it was most likely a model 12. However, if he hunted grouse, you can bet the farm the trap gun stayed home. In Maine, where grouse is the top bird, the Model 37 20 ga and 16 ga sells and the 12 is a wall flower relatively speaking. That is the reality there.

I pointed out that the Model 31 was a superior skeet gun because it had side loading and a shorter, quicker stroke. That is where this gun shone. It dominated that niche in a very short time. Did it make the 31 somehow overall superior to the 12 to the point where it could outsell it? Hardly. A Maryland duck hunter would have cared less. He'd have picked his gun for different reasons. However, if he was also a good competative skeet shooter, you can bet he'd use a 12 gauge or even a 16 ga. 31 for both perhaps once it became available. It also displaced the 17 in Remington's lineup because it served very well as an upland gun too in the smaller gauges. So the 12 never defeated the 17, the 31, an evolved design, simply replaced it.

When Ithaca picked up the 37 for production, I really doubt they were out to beat the model 12 all around. Compared to Winchester, they were tiny. Even Remington was a small company compared to Winchester. So Ithaca was looking to fill a niche. The gun did it very well too. The gun is still being made. That is how good the niche is being filled. No one has successfully dislodged the 37 out of its niche yet as a nice all around upland pumper.

That leads to one important point perhaps overlooked here--availability today. There simply are more 16 ga Model 37 guns available to today's upland hunter in new, near new, or excellent used condition at a better prices than model 12 guns. The 37 has survived, as Ted S pointed out. It's still with us. the Model 12 is not.

Like I said, I don't shoot icons, I shoot the best gun in the best gauge available for my purpose at hand. Public opinion is all too often too misinformed to be relevent. We 16 ga people know this to be true perhaps better than most. So public opinion be damned. I''ll shoot my 16 ga. Model 37 for upland work thank you, because for me, it is simply better for that purpose, newer, and less expensive too. I'll use the savings to buy targets, shells, reloading stuff, and gas to get there. That way, I'll also be able to practice more to be a better shot. Thats pragmatism at work. Icons? I don't need no icons.... I don't need no stinking icons! Wink Laughing
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:56 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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So let's get this straight...Remington builds a gun or two that has a decade plus in the marketplace, and when they quit building the gun, it's been "dumped". But, Winchester quits building a gun and it's not "dumped".

Do I have that straight now?

I was 'sorta thinking "dumped" was how one might refer to something like the Ford Edsel, which came and went quickly. No doubt Remington's pumps of the era contributed to the larder of more than one family, both at the factory, the dealer, and in the field. I doubt those folks cared which was better, a 17 or a 12.

I'll buy that some here think the model 12 is better, for whatever reason. Sales success, according to PT Barnum, is a poor tool for judging merit of a product. But, the model 12 sure isn't the best for me. And, please spare me the idea that I'm wrong in my opinion because of that fact.

Winchester seems to get a free ride with it's products, even to this day, when it isn't all that hard to find out they aren't any better (or, worse) than anything else. But, almost always, they cost more. Wherever they are built, which, isn't here for the most part, and seems like it will never be again.
Best,
Ted
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:02 pm  Reply with quote
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It was P.T. Barnum that clearly understood how gullable the public was for publicity, spectacle, and slick promotion. He made a fortune off them. He called them the great unwashed--affectionately I hope. So he'd know about sales, numbers, and their irrelevence in judging quality and servicability. He was a walking, talking American icon. His most famous saying was, " There's a sucker born every minute." Laughing

PS: I would love to see how Disney World would be under his tuteledge. However, as one who has frequented the place on a regular basis as an observer for as long as I did, I can say the lessons Barnum put down were not lost. The Disney organization pretty well sucks the public dry and the public loves them for it. I helped them build the place from time to time. The Disney folks are better at that game than English businessmen and gun houses.
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87016ga
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:36 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2006
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Hi all 16'ers:
my name is Matt, long time 16er, 1st time poster, and i couldn't help but notice that in this thread over pump gun superiority Laughing between the model 12 and model 37 that both 16gg and shootingsouix more than once used the 870 as a benchmark for thier respective urguements Shocked

Just thought i would point that out for all of us wingmaster fans on the board Rolling Eyes
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:40 pm  Reply with quote



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There is just going to be no trumping the other in this useless debate. I simply can't see how any minds are going to be changed on this topic. But I must say there is no way in hell anyone in their right mind can claim the 37 has "martial superiority" ----over the Model 12???? 16GG, where are you leading us? Did you know that the military used Model 12's in WW I, clear on up to and including Viet Nam?? Let's see now, that's at least 50 years and probably longer...and in fact, the Model 97 was probably used at least as long as the Model 37 because it was in use before WW I and at least a few of them were used by our troops in Viet Nam too.

I think we're just going to have to respectfully (as respectfully as possible, anyway) agree to disagree as to which is "best"; all this unmitigated bullshit is giving me indigestion. We gotta start talking about something else; this is really pointless....

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hunshatt
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:57 am  Reply with quote
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I'm with wolf, lets get the delivery schedule, of a gauge other than, 16, by a americ Mfg, with lots of Jap machines and a propitory engraving method that no one has seen, that it appeaer I once again have on order with no idea if we'll ever get possesion of, debate started again.. That was way more fun
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TJC
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:03 am  Reply with quote
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hunshatt wrote:
I'm with wolf, lets get the delivery schedule, of a gauge other than, 16, by a americ Mfg, with lots of Jap machines and a propitory engraving method that no one has seen, that it appeaer I once again have on order with no idea if we'll ever get possesion of, debate started again.. That was way more fun


trouble maker Exclamation

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fin2feather
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:23 am  Reply with quote
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Wolfchief wrote:
I think we're just going to have to respectfully (as respectfully as possible, anyway) agree to disagree as to which is "best"; all this unmitigated bullshit is giving me indigestion. We gotta start talking about something else; this is really pointless....


My God. A voice of reason. Shocked

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:30 am  Reply with quote
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87016ga wrote:
Hi all 16'ers:
my name is Matt, long time 16er, 1st time poster, and i couldn't help but notice that in this thread over pump gun superiority Laughing between the model 12 and model 37 that both 16gg and shootingsouix more than once used the 870 as a benchmark for thier respective urguements Shocked

Just thought i would point that out for all of us wingmaster fans on the board Rolling Eyes


Anyone familiar with pump guns would recognize the advantages of the 870 pump. It is a rugged, dependable, well designed gun. However, the quality of the guns has waxed and waned through the years. Plus, there are some features Remington should have redesigned or upgraded years ago. They have ended up making the same mistake Winchester did. They have stood pat for too long. The competition is now beating the hell out of them.

I also will never buy a 16 ga 870. There is no good reason to build a 16 ga gun on a 12 ga. frame. It makes no real sense other than cost savings for Remington with no advantage or consideration for its dealers or their customers. The guns don't sell and they don't hold their revalue either. The weight of the 16 ga 870 negates the biggest advantage the gauge has--lighter weight than a 12 ga. with more hitting power than a 20 ga.. It is the main reason we like the gauge.

If Remington ever pulls its corporate head out of its corporate butt and revamps the 16 ga. design to get the weight down between 6-1/2 to 6-3/4 pounds with a 24" to 26" ribbed barrel with choke tubes and some decent wood at a decent price, then I'll be first in line to order one and shake the hand of the guy who had the courage and foresight to make that decision. Until then, I'll stay with my nice, light, easy carrying 6-1/2 pound Model 37.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:57 am  Reply with quote
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Wolfchief wrote:
There is just going to be no trumping the other in this useless debate. I simply can't see how any minds are going to be changed on this topic. But I must say there is no way in hell anyone in their right mind can claim the 37 has "martial superiority" ----over the Model 12???? 16GG, where are you leading us? Did you know that the military used Model 12's in WW I, clear on up to and including Viet Nam?? Let's see now, that's at least 50 years and probably longer...and in fact, the Model 97 was probably used at least as long as the Model 37 because it was in use before WW I and at least a few of them were used by our troops in Viet Nam too.

I think we're just going to have to respectfully (as respectfully as possible, anyway) agree to disagree as to which is "best"; all this unmitigated bullshit is giving me indigestion. We gotta start talking about something else; this is really pointless....


There were a few militarized model 1897 and model 12 guns kicking around here and there during the Vietnam era. There were also a bunch of Remington 870, Mossberg 500, and Smith and Wesson 916 models too. However, the Ithaca 37 was the one military pump gun hand picked as the best for service with the men who served on the Swift boats and other special combat teams. I was informed of this directly by several of the "Riverines" who saw action in the Mecong Delta during those years.

I'm not trying to lead you anywhere. I'm simply putting out what I've seen, heard and/or what I believe I understand. I also do not quite understand why you seem to get so upset when folks are enjoying a friendly debate. It is part of what we do here on this site. If it seems useless and upsets you, why read it and why get involved? No one but you is controlling your computer there Wolfchief. If its a personal problem you are having, then perhaps the PM venue is the answer.
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TJC
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:14 am  Reply with quote
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Tell ya the truth, I wouldn't own either one. I'm not putting energy into shucking shells in and out of a single barrel gun. There are too many REAL GOOD guns with 2 barrels and 2 triggers out there. Razz Razz Razz Very Happy

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