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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:25 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 14 Jan 2006
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Location: Lancaster county, Pa

Well I feel a little better I called George up and told him to fix it. I told him to add a few million a piece to the family's of dead soldiers. 911 victams got it why not our soldiers loved ones.But I digress lets see now let me get this right. save the whales but kill the baby's. Provide for our criminals but not our soldiers.Steal from everybody who works and give it to the people that don't. Take our retirment saving and give it to the illegals.Let violent criminals out of jail and take guns from law abiding citizens. Yeh I'd say we got our shit together. Subject closed.
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Sebascodegan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:44 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Jul 2005
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Location: Harpswell, Maine

you left out voting rights for illegals and criminals.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

16gg--We have no right to that oil?? That's your opinion and I completely disagree; we've already paid for it in blood, before we ever put one soldier in Iraq. 911 took care of that . They want to play hardball, then let them have it. To pull out without accomplishing the mission---and I'll define that as killing as many terrorists as possible OVER THERE---NOT HERE----and also as stabilizing the world oil supply, to the limited extent that's possible------would really be an insult to the troops. You think that's shortsighted? So is appeasement, and history has proven that one too. You want to blame George, go right ahead (like Gore, Kerry or either of the Clintons would have been any better??)

But neither Gore, nor Clinton nor Bush, flew the jets into the Sears Tower, a fact which some have completely lost sight of. It's becoming a choice, like it or not, between us and them. That's what war is. And in a situation like that, I'll choose "us" every time. We don't owe those people a thing.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:16 am  Reply with quote
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Who the hell is talking appeasement? Read it again, this time with both eyes open. Bush and company started out right by smashing AL Queda and their hosts the Taliban--IN AFGANISTAN. We were dead on the right mission doing exactly the right thing. We should have followed Ben Ladan straight into Pakistan and yanked him out by his lice infested beard. But the mission got changed. WHY? Ben Ladan is too useful alive to our corrupt regime. Don't you get it? The peope running this farce don't want to catch him. They want to use him as a bugaboo to keep us in line paying our taxes and doing our jobs supporting the military-industrial complex. They need an enemy to justify their overblown, money sucking existance.

There was not one Iraqi flying any of thoses planes--not one. Hussein would not let AL Queda into Iraq. They would have challenged him for power. He would not allow it. Did he have to go? Yes. Every murdering dictatorial piece of slime on this planet should suffer his fate. However, the US cannot do it alone.

A Pax Americana will murder this nation and our own freedoms and way of life as it was meant to be. We cannot repeat the mistakes of Rome and every other society that attempted hegemony. We have our own nation, our own place. We have just about everything we need here, now. We are blessed beyond any other nation on this planet. We do not need anyone else's oil or wealth. We have what we need.

Don't ever make the mistake of calling me an appeaser. I'm just not stupid enough to be fooled into thinking Iraq is the right mission at the right time. Since when do we have the right to take anyone's property by force, because some other group hit us? Your justification does not cut it. If we were to do this, we would become what we dispise. On top of this, every oil using nation on this planet would join forces and crush us--including Russia, China, and most of the European nations. We would become a pariah and rightly so. We are not a nation of thieves and brigands. Don't be foolish enough to advocate turning us into one, because a disconnected bunch of thugs murdered some of us. We'd be no better than Al Queda if we did.

We have but two correct missions before us. First, get the hell out of Iraq, then, kick in the door into Pakistan, drag Ben Laden and his boys out, and kill them for the vermin they are. If the Pakistanis don't like it, screw them. They are lying to us, stringing us along, and are hosting that murdering bastard. The second mission is learn to do without the oil. This will turn the Middle East into an economic wasteland with nothing but camel shit to fight with. Screw them too. We can do without as much oil as we've been using. We need to do without as much oil as we've been using.

Appeaser? Hardly. I just not a sucker for a line of bull shit. Frankly, I've always thought you had more brains than this Wolfchief. Open your eyes.


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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old16
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:07 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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They can take that oil and stick it up their yeng yang. They can't go long without food in those sandy places.
Go back to the rail system and stick the mob's in the ass by getting the semi's off the road. Damn don't people know that it was Hoffa that put the truckers on the road and about put the railroads out of business. Money. Money. Money. that is what it is all about. Untill you get those crooked bastards out of office and put people in for one term only this bullshit is going to keep getting worse.
We've got everything in this country we need.
Russia has more oill than all of the middle east put together. Last year when the Saudi's said they would increase production to keep the cost down Putan to them if they did Russia would flood the world market with oil to drive the price lower. After all Putan tookl the oil away from the private owner and put him in prison and took over the oil fields. I could write a bookk just what goes on in one day.

I do believe the silent will speak very soon and when they do the right the left the middle the hawks the doves and what the hell ever they all want to call themselves is going to be in for a reckoning.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:53 am  Reply with quote
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AMEN TO THAT OLD 16!!! Russia is a nation led by thugs and gangsters. However, they can't feed themselves on a regular basis. That is their biggest weakness. They need us to buy their oil. The Saudi's--a bunch of pampered rug merchants, camel traders, and thieves. They definately can't feed themselves without oil, unless they go back to being Beduin sheep and goat herders, burning camel dung for their fires. If oil becomes much less important as it should--and will in time--these people will be a footnote in history.

Iran and Iraq are very different. They can do very nicely as peaceful agrarian societies like they were before oil became so important just before WWI. They have lots of arible land. Oil wealth has led them astray from their real strengths. They are fighting over money and then misusing the proceeds. They have been corrupted. Its ridiculous, and the oil companies of the world are very much at the center of the problem--including the US oil based interests. Some of their more enlightened leaders see this and resent the damage oil interests has caused. Who can blame them?

We have the knowhow and the technology here and now to do away with over 50% of our so called oil needs. However, these efforts are being surpressed by the present administration and the special interests that corrupt it. Its not by accident but by design.

Nuclear energy is a very viable way. Look at France. She has been nuclear for over two decades now without any problems like Chernobyl or Three Mile Island. Oil is far less important there. She also can feed herself. Therefore, she manages to stay out of trouble globally. We could do the same thing only better.

We hate France, because she will not support our Iraqi fiasco. She was right. We hate her for being self-reliant and independent. We should be copying her. France concentrates on French interests and what is good for France. We should be looking out for our best interests in an intelligent, self sustaining way by using our best strengths.

We can harness the wind. The central wind belt that crosses out nation is an untapped solution. Florida has the same advantage. Massachusetts does too, but T Kennedy and Senator Kerry are fighting the proposed wind farm off Cape Cod tooth and nail. Why? The family business is involved in fuel oil. That is why. The Kennedys have quite an oil distribution business going. He's a f*cking self serving, hippocritic jerk and Kerry is his creature.

We have not fully developed our hydroelectric potential to the fullest either. In fact we have let it fall into disrepair. We have let our national hydroelectric system interests be bought out by British banking interests. Why? The Brits are an oil producing nation. It's in their best interest to keep Hydroelectric energy both expensive and ineffective. What do you think the brown- outs and price hikes of the last decade are all about. Why do you think the British Prime Minister and Bush are so close. Why do you think Britain is our best friend in Iraq.? Wake up. Wake the hell up. Stand up. Take your nation back.Now.

Appeaser? Hardly. Stupid? I don't think so. I just know where the real battle is. I'll keep right on fighting and speaking truth.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

I have neither the time nor the inclination to keep debating everything I post. If you don't agree, fine; I really couldn't care less. You don't sign my paycheck. This forum was not designed as a political referendum. You aren't necessarily calling it the way it is, and your point of view is no more truth than anything anyone else posts---no matter how many pages you take to tell your story. There's a big difference between calling things "the way they are", and the way you perceive them to be.
This is getting way too personal, and much too far off topic. I'm done with it.

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---Andrew Jackson
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:08 am  Reply with quote
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If we have lost anything in our society, it is the art of civil debate. Debate is the single most democratic process we have. It is the most essential tool in shaping national policy in any democratic form of government. Perhaps this is the core problem with America today.

Our founding Fathers debated everything. They argued, swore, even had the occasional fistfight. But through this process of debate, they hammered out a model for the longest lasting democratic government the world has known. Every key issue and policy in our constitution was debated at length. Every early decision that set the nation on its path to prosperity was debated back and forth, sometimes for years, even decades until the Civil War.

Until that tragic episode, the President was seen more like a father of all Americans rather than the simple winner of a political process. Even the oath of office requires that he put aside his political affiliations and try to find the common good. His example had the same effect on the elected officials under him. After that war, and perhaps bcause of it and the forces that led up to it, our federal government had become a first past the post, dictatorial process.

Now, whichever party that has a clear majority turns a deaf ear to the opposition and essentially dictates policy. The presidency has changed from a fraternal position of trust to the leader of a political faction in power who tends to rubber stamp the policies of his cronies and veto anything from the opposition. This does not work. We have truely lost our way and our liberty with it.

We have lost our most important political process--debate. Now, we private citisvens are expected to simply do what we are told with little question and less protest. We need to turn this situation around. We need to find our way back to debate, where everyone has a voice and the president and congress listens, weighs, considers, thinks, finds the best solution for the common good, like a true father of the nation. it once was so, why not now?

There is a way. Use your vote to scrap as much of the present government every two years. This will essentially hog tie these fools until they begin to ask what we the people want. Then we tell them through the process of debate where everyone's opinion is given due consideration in a search for the common good. We can find our way back, but first we need to relearn to listen to all sides of an issue.
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old16
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:04 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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I will say one thing more and then end this debate on this forum. Maybe someday several of us could meet in person and set around a table and take this up again in person.
The one thing I have to say is their should be a very strict law about the media. They should only print and voice the truth only. This is what they are their for. So people can draw their opinion from the truth. The problem is the media gives to many opinions from their political side and nobody gets the real truth. If you look at several different news shows you will get just as many conflicting reports,and very seldom does any match.
I don't think by making a strict law on what is reported that it would be violating our free speech. The private citizen could form their own opinion from the truth. And thats all I got to say about that.

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Anyone that is willing to give up anypart of freedom for a piece of security deserve neither.
Ben Franklin
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