16ga.com ~ View topic - O\U tang safety and barrel selector switch

The 16ga Rizzini I just bought is different than my 12ga Citori. The safety operates front and back, and the barrel selector side to side, independent of one another. It is marked with 1 dot and 2 dots, whereas the Citori is marked O and U. How can I tell which is the modified and which is the I\C without setting up a patterning board? The owner's manual is sorely lacking such useful details. Or perhaps I need a quick course in Italian!?!

I recently purchased an Italian made gun, with the same type of safety/barrel selector. When the button is to the right, showing a single dot, it's the bottom barrel. When button is to the left, showing two dots, it's the top barrel.
If your user manual does not indicate this, then you will need to go to the range to verify barrel selection.

Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 268 Location: Meridian, ID

One dot(barrel #1) should be bottom barrel - IC.
Two dots(barrel #2) top barrel - MOD.

That is how my Aurum Light is triggered/choked. Rizzini must figure if you are smart enough to buy one of their guns you can figure it out on your own where Browning feels they have to spell it out for cissytori owners. Razz

I believe on guns with fixed chokes the first barrel is the choke that is more open for the 1st shot on closer birds, etc.

Guest

Another great reason why all double barrel guns should have two triggers. You don't have all that thinking to do when you got two triggers. The front one fires the open choke the rear one fires the tight choke.....no hassal.

Guest

By all means, do verify on the range. But it is almost certainly one dot showing = bottom and two dots showing = top.

All four of my Italian made 0/Us are like that (one B.Riz, one F.A.I.R. and two Berettas). One unusual thing about the F.A.I.R. (or I.Riz): The single dot is on the left and the double dots are on the right. The B.Riz and the Berettas are the opposite.

Twice barrel, while I wouldn't argue that dual triggers aren't the bees knees for guys who are used to shooting them and do have the advantage of instant choke selection, hunting with a single selective trigger ain't exactly rocket science unless the gunner makes it so by overthinking.

I set my on bottom/more-open barrel first, leave it there and just start walking. It may not be ideal, but I'd have to believe the number of shots it actually has had any sort of effect on in the last 10 years is tiny. And, hell, I have eaten and given away a lot of birds in that time. Smile

Thanks for the info, guys!

Double triggers is a Rizzini option. "Bud" at the distributor in West Chester, PA could have installed them when he installed the straight stock in place of the POW stock which came standard. I've never shot any kind of two-triggered weapon in my life and I'm sure if I started now I'd get confused real quick. I do plan on patttern testing as soon as the rain clouds retreat.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Regardless of which safety/selector, or safety, two trigger system your gun has, you still must smoothly and quickly get the safety off before you can shoot. You must also either select the barrel or select the right trigger. Which is faster, easier, surer? Easy. The one you happen to be most familiar with. If you are not intimately familiar with your gun's safety and or selector system, then better get started with lots of practice until you are.

I hear a lot of shots taken at the Browning style safety/selector by some folks. I guess that if you have fingers and thumbs more like toes like J. Howard Muggs, then the set up might be a problem. Laughing

However, most folks of average coordination and skill adapt to it quite easily. All that needs be done is push forward at a slightly right or left slant. Your safety is off and your firing sequence selected. simple, quick and easy. The Beretta type systems require two distinctive moves. However, either system works very well if you are familiar and well practiced with it. Even the trigger mounted SKB type selector system and seperate tang safety can be mastered. it is a bit more complex, but it works well enough if you apply yourself.

Two triggers? If your gun has them, then learn to use them. Are they a must have? Certainly not. Who needs them? Not I. I can use them well enough. I'm just not a slave to them or any firing system. If the gun fits me and shoots where I look, that is all I really need. The rest is just a matter of a bit of practice.

Unless you happen to be very uncoordinated, flicking the safety off and selecting the barrel can be done in probably well under a 1/4 second. It can be done quickly and with eyes off and focused on the departing bird, as the gun comes to your shoulder. I know of no game bird including the fastest grouse, that can flush and cover much ground in that bit of time. If you are hunting over dogs, then its even easier. You know there is a bird close by. the safety goes off after you walk in and prepare to flush it, or when you send the dog in to flush if its not a pointing breed.

The key here is "eyes off." If you have to look at the safety/selector to use it properly, then you simply are not familiar enough to be in the field with that gun-period. you should never have to look at your gun to operate it. Practice should be eyes off. Your eyes have much more important work cut out for them.

Lets face it, if safety/selector switches consistantly baffle you regardless of dedicated practice, plus, walking and chewing gum simultaneously is a challange, then perhaps a pastime requiring a high degree of coordination and timing like wingshooting is not the game for you. Have you tried poker? Wink

Guest

16gg, you are a font of gun knowledge, but I'd have to disagree with you on the ease of manipulation on the Beretta and Beretta-like barrel selectors.

They're about the size of a collar-button on a button-down shirt, and flipping' them left or right during the flush while wearing a pair of gloves on a zero-degree day ain't exactly my idea of a fun little digital exercise.

I push a tang safety forward during the mount, which comes after the flush, and not before. So adding that little extra move of a right-push or a left-push, to be followed by the forward push of the safety, doesn't appeal to me. I don't need more thinking or mechanics foggin' up my move/mount/shoot. Hell, it took me half of forever to get most (but not always all) of the over-thinking and goofy, rifle-like mechanics out of my shotgunning.

Although I'll grant you, the setups where the entire safety switch is also the barrel selector are quicker to operate.

I'm pretty sure I'm of average or above-average coordination, but to be fair, I'll propose a challenge: If I ever got to Mass., you and I will have a triatholon: darts, pool and poker. The wagers must, of course, remain modest. I'd feel horrible if I took all your shell money. Smile

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:44 am; edited 1 time in total*

What official rule book states that the safety must remain on until after the bird flushes? By whose authority are we required to do so? Common sense and an aware mind dictate what is safe or unsafe.

Certainly the safety should be on should be on while we are trying to locate the bird and doing all the things necessary to the effort. Sometimes the situation demands an empty gun. A gun safety does not necessarily make a gun safe. All it is is a trigger block. Our brains and how well we train ourselves to act is the real safety.

If we are walking birds up without dogs, then in most cases, the safety must be on until the bird flushes. Even then we sometimes can hear or see the bird prior to the flush and can determine a safe course of action before the bird flushes. But generally, for that type of hunting, you absolutely need to master your safety. Gun choice is certainly part of it. Picking a gun with a safety that is hard to manipulate is not good planning.

However, if once the bird is located, the situation has been determined to be safe to shoot, everyone is where they should be and knows what they should do, the flush is immediately at hand, and your gun is pointed in the safe direction over the bird, then the safety can come off a loaded gun just prior to the flush. Common sense tells us that. If things change, then the safety goes back on and the gun is pointed in a safe direction. That should be almost automatic.

The safety of the situation should be determined before and not during a flush. Never let the flush dictate the choice of shooting or not shooting. That is how Cheney shot his buddy. That is unsafe hunting.

If the bird is at hand but the situation is not under control, the safety should remain on until it is. If the bird flushes and things aren't right, then shooting is out of the question. The safety should remain on. You mark the bird down and try again. That is safe hunting.

PS: I never claim to shade someone I don't know. That can get very expensive.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

How do you determine "just prior to the flush"? I had one day last winter when my dog gave me something like 15 productive points on pheasants, in heavy snow. The point itself, and even my kicking around in the snow, were not necessarily "just prior to the flush". Not that I would have wanted to be kicking around in the snow with the safety off anyhow. Often required quite a bit of kicking before the flush.

It's easy enough--and a good bit safer--to flip the safety off as you mount the gun. That's the way we teach it in the Iowa Hunter Education courses, and it makes a lot of sense to me. Even with a pointing dog, you don't know when "just prior to the flush" is going to be. The bird may be 2 feet, 2 yards, 20 yards, or 50 yards in front of the dog, and I'm not interested in walking that far--when I might stumble--with the safety off. If you're mounting your gun, then you're ready to shoot, and you're not walking at the same time. You lose no time whatsoever, because you can take a safety off a lot faster than you can mount a gun, and if you can't do both at the same time, then you're likely also incapable of walking and chewing bubblegum simultaneously.

As for the various safety/selector combos, they all work fine--if you're used to them. It's possible to stick the Browning version in the middle (they made a change on the Cynergy to prevent that), and with the Ruger type--forward and at a diagonal angle, either right or left--I've had the experience of accidentally swapping to the other barrel when I have not intended to do so. A safety that's just a safety is the least prone to problems, either one paired with double triggers, a single nonselective trigger, or with the selector down in the trigger guard or on the trigger itself, like the SKB or the BSS. Learning to select your barrel after the flush is pretty easy with double triggers--assuming the triggers are properly spaced and you're not wearing very thick gloves.

*Last edited by Rabbitdog on Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total*

My new Charles Daly O/U 16ga. was made in Italy by Sabatti and has a single selective triger. The Safety must be moved left or right to select the barrel then forward to remove the safety. The tang on which the safety is located is marked "O" on the left side and "U" on the right side. If you can see the U it fires the under barrel. If you see the O it fires the over barrel. After firing about 800 rounds through it now at my local Trap-Skeet-Sporting Clay range I don't have to look to see which barrel I am firing.
As to when to select a barrel and remove the safety; While hunting (Pheasants / Quail ) here in Kansas, I was taught NOT to REMOVE the SAFETY until the bird was in flight and identified as Hen/Rooster and a SAFE
shot senerio was determined. I don't think that the One Tenth of a second
that it takes to get the safety off , even after a two second delay for identification and safe shooting check is a handicap even with our fast, wild Kansas birds. Just my opinion. Speed is no substitute for marksmenship.
I "USED" to hunt bunnies with some folks that would chamber a round and take the safety off the instant the Beagles opened up ! Not only is this an unsafe practice, but they still missed a lot shots. Thats what getting in a hurry will do for you !
As a side note; I had the folks a Briley install thin wall, flush mount choke tubes (set of five) in my new Charles Daly 16. They also ported it and polished the forcing cones. If you need any choke or barrel work done I can highy recommend their professionalism. Iam extremely pleased with thier work and the added utility of my O/U.
Remember: Its great to go FAST, just don't get in a HURRY !
Rabbitdog

Larry, you should know by now that there are no absolutes in hunting. It is too mutable an activity, and you'd better have your wits about you or stay home. Common sense and an aware mind are prerequisites for safe hunting. Let your actions fit the situation. there is a huge difference between can and should. "One day last winter in the snow" is not the same as "one day last fall in short grass with the bird crouched in full view and its head pointing directly away." Each situation cals for its own response. Hunting purely out of habit can also get you hurt or killed.

Approach your gun safety with the same reasoning. If its possible to stick a safety in the middle, then you did not do it right or the gun is not working right. Have it fixed and practice some more.

You have found a system that works for you. However, it is not the only or the best for all. It is simply best for you, based on your personal experience.

None of my Browning Citori safeties stick in the middle while I'm out in the field. Why? Because I am thoroughly familiar with them, each and every one. My hunting guns have been determined to work perfectly before they go out in the field with me. I've also practiced with them to the point of mastery before they go out with me. I've been using Browning type safeties for decades. They work just fine if I do my part. However, I also hunt with other guns with different stystems. I also know how to use them.

Do things occasionally go wrong. Certainly. That is part of life. Learn from it, shrug off the disappointment, and move on. Don't be blaming the gun. Its just a tool. You are the workman.

You cannot spoon feed competant and safe gun handling and hunting practices too a group of newbies without stressing that their brains and how well they use them are the only real safeties they have. All you can do is give them the basics, then stress the fact that the class you've just given cannot possibly cover all the contingencies. You can tell them to spend some time in the field with a competant and experienced person. You have to tell them to always think before acting. You also have to stress the importance of practice. Its part of the job. Then you hope they were listening and have the brains to understand and learn the fine points as they go. That is all you can do as an instructor. You can't possibly undo or offset the fact that some of these folks are over 30 years of age and have never hunted with a gun in the field. A 1 or 2 week class cannot make them expert or even competant. Their own common sense, intelligence, and time will determine that.

A lot of good information (about both barrel selection & general gun safety) has been covered in this thread. Let me just add this.

No matter what type of gun is used (Rubberband -to- Howitzer). You should be familure enough with it, to operate it safely with your eyes closed, prior to fireing it. I've been taught both methods (safety off, in advance & safety off, during mount). There is no question that the safest method is to keep the safety on, until you are ready to shoot, just prior to touching the trigger. It is up to you, the shooter, to determine what is safe and/or warrented for your conditions & surroundings.

I just recently just picked up my first doube gun. I have not hunted with it yet, but managing the barrel selector is not that tough. If a bird gets up & far enough out before I can flip that barrel selector, I might as well flip that safety back on.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, I agree with you that there are no "absolutes" in hunting. But there are certainly some absolutes in safety, and I see absolutely no reason for removing a safety before a bird flushes. Why would one need to do that, unless one also approaches the bird with the gun already shouldered? Simply taking the safety off--unless you have a sticky safety or some other problem that you should not have, if you check out your equipment before you go to the field--does nothing positive for you, but it does do something negative. The gun is now needlessly in an unsafe condition. I don't know anyone--especially not anyone who's hunted much at all--who's incapable of taking the safety off as the gun comes to the shoulder, both of which occur AFTER the bird has flushed. Thus, removing the safety before you mount the gun and before the bird flushes isn't gaining you any time at all. So why do it, when you might have to take one more step than you expect to take before that bird flushes, and when you might stumble with a gun that's off safe? Makes absolutely no sense.

Indeed, you did not "do it right" if you stick a safety in the middle--but if you're used to a safety that moves only forward or back, not also left and right, it's quite possible to do it. You can have problems with a safety that has no lateral, barrel selecting function too--but removing the lateral movement function also removes that particular potential problem.

The purpose of hunter education is not to turn tyros into experts. It's to give them a bit of a leg up in such areas as gun safety, hunting ethics, wildlife identification, etc. The vast majority of our students are kids, not adults. (Most adults we get are either sitting through the class with their kids, or else they're there because they're going hunting in a state that doesn't grandfather in "experienced" hunters when they apply for a license. Some states require everyone, regardless of age, to have completed a Hunter Education/Safety Course.) And one thing hunter education has done--as clearly proven by national statistics--is to reduce the number of hunting accidents, fairly significantly. We don't make them experts by any means, but apparently, the course of instruction and the people teaching it do a better job with hunter safety, in general, than did Dad or Uncle Bill back in the days when the more seasoned of us learned all about it from a family member.

The safety on a gun certainly is not the only thing upon which someone should rely to avoid accidents. But it's another tool that will help to avoid accidents (and accidental discharges, even if no one is injured). Reminds me of something I saw on an Army firing range, now over 40 years ago. We were firing M-1's from the "squatting" position, from which--if you're not careful--it's fairly easy to lose your balance and end up tipping over. The range NCO showed the safety procedure should that happen: You hold onto the gun with your leading hand while removing your trigger hand and using it to break your fall and retain as much muzzle control as possible. One guy didn't absorb that lesson, got knocked off balance, let go with his leading hand to break his fall, and blew a hole in the ground about a foot in front of him. He was given time to rethink his mistake while cleaning latrines.

Guest

16gg, pretty high on your own opinions, aren't you?

Unless my reading comprehension has gone to hell, you either just told me, and perhaps Larry, we're doing it wrong and not hunting safely, or you strongly implied that.

I won't go into a long post on how many shots I've passed even after mounting the gun ... bird too low, bird flies toward another hunter 100 or 150 yards in my direct line of sight, etc. In the last 10 years, I have pushed the gun away from shoulder and cheek, turned the gun muzzles toward the sky, reset the safety and passed on what others considered safe shots many, many times just because its what my reflexes and conscience told me were the right thing to do.

But having quite obviously run across a man who can determine gun safety from a Web chat board and then lecture others on it, I'll make a few points in my last reply to any of your posts:

-- Poor planning. A barrel selector and a safety, though joined on the Beretta-type safeties, are not the same thing. Operating one and the other, as you previously stated, are two separate moves. I've got 5 O/Us in the safe with tang-mounted safeties, four of them the Beretta style. The fact that I or others do not like to fiddle with the selector during a point or during a flush hardly means any of us are coordination-impaired or has planned gun purchases poorly.

-- Pushing off the safety as part of the mount, and not before, is routinely taught practice. It is hardly indicative of bad gun handling, bad safety practice, a lack of motor skills, a lack of intelligence, or slavish adherence to some rule book. When in a group or working with more than one dog, I -- and apparently some others -- feel it is, in fact, safer than standing about a with a gun taken off safe. A situation in the field can go from "in control" to otherwise in a fraction of a second. No, leaving a safety on doesn't make a gun "safe," it does make it a bit safer. Any mechanical object can fail. You think you thought that up yourself or the rest of us never noticed that ... or at least read it somewhere?

-- Spoon-feeding newbies. More often than not while in the field, I treat my guns with single-selective triggers like they were single, non-selective triggers. I don't insist anyone else do it. I said it works for me and hasn't deprived my table, or my friends' tables, of game birds. From there you have put your obviously superior mind to work and expounded outward in ever-growing circles on motor skills, gun safety, gun purchase planning, proper practice, etc. In this discussion, who do you really think is the poster whose faith in his own fine thinking, extraordinary abilities and superior common sense is blocking his ability to consider the views of others or even treat them with just a dash of respect?

-- Re shading someone, I considered it a friendly, harmless jibe toward
someone I thought highly of in terms of both erudition and good-natured humor. Obviously, I was mistaken.

Finally, given your enormous intellect and obvious great concern for those of us with less intellectual firepower or wide-ranging, real-word experiences that trump those of all others, I will pray for your continued sanity as life forces you to deal with the great unwashed hordes who must tax your patience so heavily.

And, please, don't worry too much. Amazingly enough ... even in my dimwitted, large-thumbed and barely evolved state ... I've survived to middle age having frequented bar rooms, board rooms and chat rooms. Interesting, though -- I have noticed all three of those sorts of rooms have one thing in common: Pedants.