16ga.com ~ View topic - O\U tang safety and barrel selector switch

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Ted, what Americans do with intercepting sear guns is one thing; how they come from the factory is another. I've owned a number of Brit guns, including some of the non-ejector variety (obviously not intended for driven shooting!), and as I recall, they all had automatic safes. I don't much care either way, although if I've been shooting an auto safety gun for a long time and then pick up a manual safe gun, I do have to remind myself of the difference. Even when I'm shooting clay birds, I always start low gun, safety on--just as I would in the field. The late Jack O'Connor raged against automatic safeties, for whatever reason. Probably influenced a lot of old-timers.

As for carrying your Darne open, Ted--I assume you mean with the "key" just short of being closed. And one reason Darne owners tend to do that is because of the awkward safeties with which they're equipped! Smile

As for your earlier post about being comfortable hunting with your buddies even if they were carrying a pigeon gun without a safety . . . since you later clarified that they all carry their guns open and empty, whether that gun has a safety doesn't seem to me to make a lot of difference--unless they're parading around with it off safe, after they've loaded it.

I REALLY don't want to become collateral damage here and would like to make one TINY LITTLE observation then duck back down into my FOX (as in Sterly) hole-pheasants (and occasionally quail in bad weather) LOVE to hide down in cat-tail sloughs. I don't expect my dog to go somewhere I'm not willing to plow into (well-other than multiflora rose hedges) and having an open gun is extremely NOT an option. You come out of there absolutely covered with fine silky cat-tail 'fluff.' But this may only be a midwest issue. There-I'm gone-please Rolling Eyes

I'm with Doc on the cat-tail hunting. The lab and I wade in together. It has been great to follow the thread on safeties and the proper use of them. It seems to me that the key is muzzel control and safety on until you are going to shoot at a bird. Then again I don't have the indepth knowledge of some board members. I rely on the KISS theory for the most part.
Best,
Ron

OKay, I've finished my pint so its time to come out from under the table, get another, throw another coal on the fire so to speak, and duck back under the table. This has been a darned good donnybrook so far. Hell, we even have Ted involved. Hi Ted! You are right about grouse; they are sneaky. Its known as as the Great Grouse Conspiricy. They especially like to pick on fans of the 16 ga and French gun afficionados. I see they've been working on you heavily. I'd declare war on the little buggers if I were you and hunt them as often as you could. That'll so them. Wink

If we can't master the safety on our guns for whatever reason, or won't bother too, or can't find a way to live with it as most folks seem to have, then getting something different is one solution. There are others, like throwing the gun in the weeds and taking up golf. Or we can keep the gun and blame it for our misses. The last one seems to work quite well for some folks. I see that a lot at trap shoots. Or some folks prefer to get hostile with the messenger. That seems to work for them. I prefer the first one, learn to use it. It seems to work for me.

MGF, its beginning to sound like the pot is calling the kettle black here. I've already stated that my post was not directed at you in person, but guns and shooters in general. You don't seem to want to take it at face value. If I'd been pointing at you, I'd have put your handle right on it. I did not. If that doesn't clear things up between us, then all I can say is... PLURRRRRB!!! Razz

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Larry, I personally know little about British game guns. They may very well be the best in the world, but most folks...no, on second thought, all the folks I know and hunt with simply can't afford them. So we will never really know. I'll take your word for it. you obviously know what you are writing about.

We buy the guns we think we can afford and make do. Mine work quite well for me, because I've taken the time to learn to use them and to modify them if they don't fit me well. As far as safeties and/or selectors, I can't safely modify them, so I learn to use them as is. Complaining about them doesn't help a bit. My present attitude towards them did not happen over night. It simply took time, effort, and patience as I maturred as a shooter.

By the way, I don't like self setting safeties on sotguns either, but most can be modied safely by removing the push rod that sets them back upon opening the gun. I like closing a gun on the shells, then setting the safety myself. I don't like to rely on anything automatic when it comes to safety. As I've said before, I don't believe any gun safety is safe, only the operator of the gun is safe or unsafe. Guns are inanimate object pure and simple.

Ironically enough, my first shotgun was an old 16 ga. "Ivy Johnson Champion" with the hammer. I too had to learn to thumb it back. I was given the gun by a very elderly family friend my first summer in Grayson County, Va. I did not have pot to pee in at the time or a window to throw it out of either. He also gave me two and 1/2 boxes of green paper Reminton shells. I think they were 1 ounce #6 shot loads--old even then. Some were so old that the print had been rubbed off, but they all fired soundly enough. I was beyond grateful for that old man's kindness. Unfortunately, he was too old to come with me to hunt, and everyone else at the farm was too busy trying to earn a living. So, having been given a certain amount of latitude about free time since I was a guest and a young one to boot, I was able to sneak off to the woods, but I was on my own.

I killed a lot of squirrels with that old gun and several deer with the few old "punkin balls" I was also handed. I also shot a few grouse too, but I was not hunting for sport but meat for the table. It was one way for me to contribute. Wing shooting was a bit down the road for me at that point, so I also used the "Arkansas trick" without really knowing it wasn't sporting." I was too poor to be able to waste shells trying to learn and too unsophisticated to know the difference. Game laws said nothing about the subject, so I took what I could and thanked providence for the fine eating. I was out in the Va mountains pretty much on my own and learning as best as fortune, opportunity, and my senses would allow me.

I look back on those days now, shake my head and smile. Now, I would not think of ground sluicing a bird. No need either. My fortunes have changed and so too my view of things. How times and circumstances have changed me. Live and learn.

I've even learned to shoot a double gun fairly well in the last year. Remember me saying last spring that I'd never learned to shoot one well and probably wouldn't. Well there you go. I was wrong about that. I can now handle the Matty and the Beretta 409 quite well. It just took time and finding the right gun. You said I probably could and you were right. I listened, took a positive tack, and now I can do it fine. So old dogs can learn new tricks, at least this old dog. Smile

I will continue to use my own judgement about safe on or safe off before the bird flies. I can do it either way. I also have come to know when it is alright or not. But that took time too. I followed the safety on at all times while hunting rule as most do until I was certain I'd mastered the issue and was comfortable with making the choice.

I'm not going to bother to justify it to you, no disrespect intended. I look at red traffic lights the same way. Sometimes, under certain circumstances, sitting at a red light at 2:00 am at an intersection where there is clear visibility in all directions and no other cars anywhere in sight or earshot does not make sense. So I occasionally drive through after stopping and carefully looking to make certain its safe to go.

I would never advocate that a new inexperienced driver do this. I would always advise them to practice the rules of the road to perfection. That is common sense and solid advice. I follow the same guidelines with new shooters. I also try to advocate that they use their intelligence and senses as they go. Blindly following the rules is one way to learn them, but following them and learning why as we go is probably better.

Sometimes the rules simply do no good at all. A shooting war is one of those times when the situation arises that our intelligence and a practice- sharpened set of wits is all we have. So I will continue to advocate using the gray matter to all folks. We are thinking creatures as well as ones of habit. We need to do both. Clear thinking and reasoning is also one of those things that is improved with time and practice for most folks.

I was taught from boyhood that the root of common sense is the golden rule--do unto others as you would have them do unto you and vice versa. All common sense stems from there. What you discribed is not common sense, but an egocentric, immature disregard for others. That attitude, unfortunately, is all too common, but is not common sense as I've come to know it.

So it is with guns-- loaded or unloaded. I do not like it when someone points a gun at me, intentionally or not. So, I don't do it to others and never have. To do it under any circumstances, playfully or otherwise is plain rude and ignorant. If someone does it, I tell them not to. I don't like it. If they do it again, I'm going to bust their chops hard. God help them if they do it a third time and don't pull the tigger. Someone that rude, ignorant, and obstinate should not own a gun and is risking his own right to existance by threatening others.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, you keep avoiding the question I've asked, repeatedly: What is the ADVANTAGE in taking the gun off safe before the bird flushes? Unless you have a defective safety--very hard to operate or something like that--there's no trick at all to taking the safety off and mounting the gun in one motion. I do it all the time, even when shooting clay birds, and I'm older than most of the guys I shoot with, and probably didn't have better reflexes than they did, even when I was younger.

To quote Charlie at Hill Rod & Gun, it's "poppycock" that British game guns are out of the reach of the vast majority of hunters. Your choices are certainly limited if you spend less than $2,000, but there are nice 12ga British boxlock nonejectors out there for what they'll be asking for new Citori 16's. Friend of mine just bought one, totally redone, for $2,000. Without the barrels reblued, CC redone, and wood redone, it would have cost a good bit less, but would've been no less serviceable.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:40 pm; edited 2 times in total*

Sorry, I thought you were asking me to justify it on a moral basis. From a purely purely practical point, I can mount and fire the gun slightly quicker with the safety off and the gun partially raised and covering the location of the bird. In some cases, in very thick cover, that 1/4 second can count if its safe to do so, like grouse in the thick stuff. Again, the bird is at hand, the dog is on close point, my feet are planted, and I just know from experience that the bird is about to explode out of the cover. I like being as ready as I can get, mind relaxed, eyes over the likeliest escape route, concentrating soley on establishing a visual on the target and listening too.

I don't know if you've ever shot trap doubles, but its somewhat like preparing to crush the first target as quick as you can. We don't use the safety, because we know the direction of fire is safe prior to mounting the gun. The only difference is that I know where the first target is going to be, so I'm already glued to the stock with my eyes focused loosely under the barrel and covering the area where the streak of the target can first be seen as it leaves the house. That is the one of the keys to doubles. The second is establishing where the second target is with your eyes ahead of your swing to it. Your head has to still be glued to the stock. Your gun will go to the second target once your mind knows where it is. Lift your head to look and you lose. Move the eyes first to lead your swing without moving the head off the gun. You will have plenty of time to crush the second if you practice a bit and the gun shoots exactly where you look.

In the above grouse hunting scenario, I've already established that my direction of fire is safe, but the gun is slightly lowered to give me a wider range to watch for the bird and a freer swing to nail it. Grouse aren't as fast as a trap target but they aren't exactly slow off the mark either, especially when they know that they have been found and the cover will mask them quickly, nor are they totally predictable. I've also hunted them in more open settings like old apple orchards, fire roads, and old railroad beds that run past white oak stands. Safety on is usually the way I go about it.

I've never bothered to set up on cock pheasant like this. They are bigger, slower, easier to hit, and generally vocalize as they flush etc. Hens usually are silent. That is sometimes a clue whether the bird is cock or hen, but not always. I've had roosters flush silently except for the wing beats, but they are never hard to hit if they flush inside of 15 or 20 yards. Most eastern birds will hold even closer except for the wise old holdovers. Hens will sit until you step on them at times. Then its heart attack time as they flush from under your feet. The safety had better be on in this case, because sometimes the gun goes into the air as the shock of the surprise hits you, and you surrender to the clouds. Laughing

Snipe sometimes require a set up to hit well, especially if you are hunting them with a .410 like I do, its very early, and the light is not fully up yet or its misty. They are both tiny compared to a pheasant and quicker too. They are also silent until under way, then sometimes they pipe. But if you here them before you see them rise, its usually too late. I've set up with safety off on them on occasions when they are edgy and not holding real well. However, I've also hunted them safety on and practically stepped on them when walking to the point. Again, its a judgement call.

Wood cock are too slow. No need. Same for rail. Incoming ducks are more apt to be taken with safety off first before the swing as the "take 'em is given. Jump shooting them is usually done with safety on until they flush, but they aren't too fast or quiet either on the rise. However, once at speed, they can out distance any upland bird in a hurry.

So, sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't, but I'm dead certain that whichever way I point my gun, its safe. I have to know that before I even raise it to shoot and slip the safety forward or sideways or which ever it requires. That is the true key to safe shooting, that and an aware mind.

As far as what what few British game guns I've seen offered for $2000 and under in my neck of the woods, frankly, I'll pass. They are usually older than me, heavily used, loose, beaten about to ugliness, the wood is oil soaked to mush, and has a drop to comb like a ski slope. My Citori is a far better gun in far better condition, fits me out of the box like a glove, and is far more apt to last me a lifetime. I've also never spent 2K on one for hunting yet. I'm not likey to either. Besides, I don't carry a 12 much for upland hunting. Don't really need it, thanks. Poppycock? Not here in the Northeast for at least the last decade.

PS, I usually shoot skeet low gun with safety on for hunting practice. I enjoy it more, because its more challenging, and it keeps me on my toes.

Glad you find those pheasants so easy to hit; must be those tame, house-broke ones you guys have back east Very Happy

! They must train their women right, too; out here the hens talk just as much as the roosters Laughing

!

Fin

16gg said: "I just know from experience that the bird is about to explode out of the cover."

Wow Shocked

I've stood staring at a covey of quail eyeballing my dog and STILL was suprised when they flushed, flew in my face insted of where I'd planned, where the two birds came from that flushed behind me, by the wild turkey that the quail flushed that the other dog was pointing 15 feet away, and the black locust branch that snapped back into my face as the dog took me out at the knees and I fell into the creek. Huntin' sure sounds alot easier with 16gg around Laughing

(All that stuff has happened too though not at the same time Rolling Eyes

)

Rev doc, did you also surrender your gun to the clouds? Laughing

Quail will sometimes hold until the sun sets. Sometimes they won't. Coveys usually form up in a circular pattern and break in different directions and at slightly different times to confuse predators. Singles seem to be less apt to sit long.

Only a brain damaged ruffed pat will sit until you kick it in the ass. It has happened but, I can count the times on one hand and still have enough fingers left to hold a donut too. They will flush if a leaf or an acorn falls too close. They are also a heck of a lot quicker than quail. Think of a dull grey or reddish brownish streak disappearing into the trees to the thunderous beat of wings just as your dog gets a bit birdy or goes on point. You will be asking yourself how such a small bird can make such a god awful racket, and how you are going to get your heart back down out of your throat. That is more likely. If you get a chance to set up, do it. you'll most likely need it. Most times, you won't have time.

I hunt local quail down the Cape with a .410 and dump them regularly, often two for two. Florida quail are bigger and faster, but still aren't nearly as hard to hit as a Mass grouse in the rank stuff. You will hardly ever get a chance at a double on grouse. Hitting the lottery for the big one is probably more likely. Grouse do not sit for anyone for more than a split second once they know you are there and can't hear you or the dog moving--at least the ruffs I've hunted. Spooky is the word for it. So is humbling.

PS, I forgot about pass shooting at dove. Quite a few folks take the safety off as the birds come in just prior to mounting and swinging on them. Usually these birds are being taken from established blinds or at least a stool or up turned bucket on the edge of the field. I've had more shot rained on me during a dove shoot than at any other time I can remember but at least it was falling out of the air fairly harmlessly. Takes some getting used to though.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, all I have to say is, you must have an unusually slow thumb. Smile

And when that dog is on point in the thick stuff, how do you know whether it's a grouse or a woodcock, unless you see it on the ground? Personally, I don't want to look for the bird, because that causes me to look down, which means I have to refocus when the bird flushes and comes up out of the cover. I'd rather keep my eyes looking straight ahead, in the direction the dog's pointing, but well above ground level.

And you must have especially talkative pheasants out your way. Can't recall a season in which anything close to a majority of the wild roosters I hunt have cackled when they flush.

Also, "not really needing" a 12 doesn't really apply to your typical Brit 12. They're 2 1/2" guns, and for all practical purposes, are limited to the same 1 1/8 oz load that's likely the heaviest you'll use in your 16. So it's not like a Brit 12 is some sort of cannon in comparison to a Citori 16. And interestingly enough, toting your Citori 16, you give up about half a pound to me toting an Army & Navy 12, which weighs 6 1/4 or a bit less with 28" barrels. Many of them have stocks that are too straight for people used to classic American sxs. And with your nose for deals, Guy, if you can't find a decent BLNE Brit 12 for under $2,000, it's only because you're not looking.

Larry, I never look down for the bird anymore, nor did I say that. I said I try to cover the most likely escape route or direction. that is usually about head high with grouse if they aren't already in a tree. I've had them come out of a few. No, my thumb is hardly slow. But Mass grouse are generally faster and spookier than some I've hunted in North New Hampshire and in parts of Maine too where they haven't been assaulted by the locals on opening week. Laughing

Blue ridge grouse are also spookier too if memory serves me, or just maybe I was slower with a gun back then. Maybe both. Slow Blue ridge grouse tend not to live long enough to breed. everything and everyone eats them.

Woodcock aren't usually found as often in grouse thickets in my neck of the woods as in other areas, nor do they stay around long. If the wisps are in, you'll know it. They are everywhere in a small area. My old Hiedi dog also acted differently over woodcock. She absolutely adored the little buggers. Her tail would be going and her whole ass end would get involved. It was too funny for words. She seemed more certain of herself on them. I don't particularly like the taste, but hunted them with Hiedi for her sake. She always made my day if the birds were there. she also hunted snipe with extra enthusiasm but moved a bit slower when they were about.

She was more cautious and sneaky on grouse. She was like that on pheasant too but less so. Her eyes would be going a bit as she pointed and she'd stock them like a cat, low down and crouched a bit. Quail fascinated her. She'd freeze up like concrete and just stare. She was started on Japanese quail by her first owner, so maybe that is why. I knew my dog and could read her. This was often enough to venture a solid guess as to what was in the offing.

the one area I'd get fooled in often was in Bellingham along the Charles river. This area had some good white oak stands close by for the grouse, some wild grape, wild rasberries, and checker berries. It had lots of china berries, wild cranberries and such for the pheasant, plus wild rice. It had stocked and holdover pheasant too.

Often, I'd guess grouse, and a big old swamp rooster would fly out. These old buggers were as spooky as grouse, but tended to run if they could. I could see the tracks they left in the mud or snow and I'd know. I've hardly ever seen grouse do that. Most times they just explode into wing and are gone like a phantom if I did not quickly see them get up. I'd set up anyway if I had the chance. I head shot a few nice roosters that way by being ready for a grouse flush. That has its own benifits too if you are as partial to eating pheasant as I am. These swamp birds also tasted extra good too. Must have been what they were eating. I appreciated the lack of shot and pilled up feathers in the meat.

As for 6-1/4 pound guns, I don't like them. Too light for me, so I'm not giving anything away that I'd need or want. I also won't bother with 2-1/2 inch loads. I find my 16 gauge 2-3/4 inch loads up to any upland hunting I do, and in some cases, more than I really need. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but there it is. I'm not a fan of British guns. My limited experiences with them have not been positive in my estimation.

You are wrong about local prices around here and right about my desire to own a British game gun. I've seen British guns for sale. but I don't really care for them. They are not for me, they do not fit me well, and usually have the higher prices around here. Take my word for it. Maybe they sell for less out your way because they aren't as widely popular there. 16 gauge guns don't bring as much in MA or the New England states as they do out your way. Local market conditions have their effect on prices. the decent british guns are very pricy. so is the junk, valuewise. Small local shops don't bother with them at all. they usually sell any they get to the snob shops.

I've seen my share at gun shows, but we both know about prices at gun shows, except for the rare bargain like my Beretta 409 this winter.
At least I've gotten to handle a bunch of them at these shows over the years. I go for the education and keep my hand firmly on my wallet.

Most of the firms that tend to sell British game guns in New England are the high end shops with the built in overhead and the nose in the air attitude towards Joe Average and his working class values. Thats me. I'm not the Orvis type. I know flattery and hype when I'm hearing it and they seem to know I'm a working class type of guy with a built in BS alarm as soon as I poke my face in the door. Not everything they sell is nearly as good, or as useful, oras indespensable as they claim, but all of it is definately priced like it was made of gold. So now, I don't bother with them anymore except for the occasional tent sale that Orvis throws in Vermont every so often when they have a backlog of discontinued stuff. I've gotten some great flyrod gear at bargain prices at these sales by picking through the junk and taking what is good and priced right. Orvis also sells guns at ridiculously high prices, but don't look for salesor bargains there. I've never seen one.

Same goes for LL bean as far as guns go. I've gotten some excellent gear at rock bottom prices at their factory stores in New Hampshire though. Plus, you can't beat their satisfaction guarranteed policy. They back up their stuff like no other firm I've ever known about. I wear a lot of their clothes. Great stuff.

as far as guns go, KTP treats me right well thank you, deals straight up, and treats everyone with a friendly but business-like, no BS approach. They are okay with me. Griffin and Howe, and the other jokers can eat my shorts as Bart S. would say. Laughing

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, I've never bought a British gun in Iowa that I can recall either, but the Internet works just fine here--as it does in MA, which is obvious from the fact that you're up and running on this discussion board. Smile

If you think there's some dire shortage of Brit game guns for under $2,000, check out www.thadscott.com. You'll find at least a couple dozen of them there for less than that. Not trying to sell you one . . . just pointing out they're hardly rare. Heck of a lot easier to find, as a matter of fact, than a Citori 16. Smile

As for 2 1/2" 12's, since you're a reloader, you don't need to buy 2 1/2" shells at all unless you really want to. (Same is true for 2 1/2" 16's, for that matter.) All you need to do is educate yourself on the appropriate pressure limits for the gun in question--which you can determine from the proofmarks--and then reload within those parameters, using 2 3/4" hulls.

I realize this is a 16ga discussion board, but no use polluting it with myth and misinformation about other guns in which the participants might have some interest. If we're going to say "the 16ga is better than ______", let's at least present both sides of the story accurately.

I also won't bother with 2-1/2 inch loads. I find my 16 gauge 2-3/4 inch loads up to any upland hunting I do, and in some cases, more than I really need.

Larry, the above is exactly what I wrote. I do not see the word BETTER there. I said that the 16 gauge 2-2/4 inch is up to my needs. I've invested considerable time, effort, and money acquiring the gear and the know how to reload for my 16 gauge guns, not to mention the guns. Being a basic pragmatist, as I've often said I am, I am satisfied with what I have already.

I've already let you talk me into acquiring not one, but two 16 gauge SxS guns. That is enough Bub. You are pushing it with the 2-1/2" British game gun stuff. Rolling Eyes

So be happy that you've coerced me thus far and that should be sufficient. Wink

Heck, I let Ted S. talk me into a model 37. Who'd a thunk it!! Shocked

In fact, I just realized I've acquired not one, but two of those too. Holy Hoppin Hanna, I must be getting soft. Embarassed

I probably will not be looking further into any British 12 ga 2-1/2" guns. I have looked enough at what is available locally to know that I don't want one of them. Further, I know I'm not qualified enough to order one on the internet from anyone including Thad Scott. It would be nothing but an unqualified gamble on my part. I'm sure Mr Thad Scott would be most greatful in the long run if I don't. It would most likely be a fiasco in the making. Anyone that is interested can have the one I'd probably order and will most likely be better off with it than I ever will. So there, i'm also being a bit magnanimous to boot. Cool

At this point, I think we should both take what we have gotten from this thread and run like thieves. Its been fun...well most of it anyway. But its time to start another war. This one is about over. Laughing

Gentlemen, please follow me to the next campaign.... or not! Wink

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Whatever you do, Guy, don't let Ted talk you into one of those weird, sliding breech French contraptions!

Buying over the Internet, from an established dealer, is no "gamble" at all. They all allow an inspection period, with a no questions asked return policy--full refund, less shipping. In many respects, it's safer than buying at a gun show, or in fact from some dealers--depending on their return policies. Cabela's operates with that same satisfaction guaranteed policy, and so do some other dealers even when you buy in person, off the rack--but some don't.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

Try as I might, when I stomp a pheasant slew in the wanning days of pheasant season, my safety consious gentleman friends usually aren't interested. The truth is most of them are older fellows (77 for my Dad, my number 1 hunting buddy, and, nearer to 80, in one other case) and the weather tends toward mild to bitter cold at that time of the year. Hence, it's me and the pooch, and when I'm alone, the guns action can be closed.The dog won't complain about safety. I usually have the swamp to myself, but, will open the action if I see someone coming. Not sure what Larry or Guy do, but, I was taught that an open gun was proper in encounters with strangers in the field.
Guy, whatever you do, don't let Brown talk you into an intercepting sear gun-you will give up an arm, three teeth, and a first born, usually, and those stupid ejectors will have you searching the ground for the emptys, leaving you with dirty and/or snowy hulls for the reloading bench. The intercepting sear guns he so glowingly fawns over are suspiciously missing from the low rent web sites he tells everyone to shop for guns at. I'm also beginning to think Cabela's has him on the payroll with all the cheerleading his does for that overpriced outfit. Hmm? Some of us are in our RIGHT mind Larry, and find a Darne (or, Greener, for that matter) safety to be just the ticket. Priced right, too-sucks to be righthanded sometimes!
Anyway, its all academic posting-you guys will never hunt with me, nor I with you, so just be safe out there, and take home only birds and great memories with the buddies you hunt with. Larry, you 'sorta let the faux pas's that ALWAYS happen at those "shoots" you hang out at 'kinda pass in this discussion, so be careful at those dreadful undertakings as well. Hate to think of what could happen when writers, publishers, and idiots with guns and money associate 'en mass.
Best,
Ted