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Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 145 Location: minnesota

here's one for all of you chemistry majors out there.
a buddy of mine shoots a 686 in one of those "other gauges" and left a choke tube sitting in a bottle of hoppes#9 bore solvent for "about 2 months".
when he pulled it out of the bottle, it was no longer stainless steel colored,but had turned black Exclamation

we shot some skeet and 5-stand that day with no problems, but he called me a week later to tell me that when he took the tube out of the barrel to clean the gun, it was brittle and had cracked Exclamation

WHAT THE HELL Question

it's not me buy the way, i don't shoot beretta's
i've been using hoppes for almost 30 years, and never heard of this.
of course, i don't just drop chokes into a bottle and forget about them.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Well I ain't no college boy but I can figure this much out--
1.Anybody what leaves a choke in any solution for two plus months is an idiot.
2.What condition was it in when he put in back in the gun--this guy is no rocket scientist????
3.Mabey instead of buying another choke/gun he should spend some money on common sense lessons Twisted Evil

I hope this ol' boy don't plan on buying a 9000H in the future Embarassed

Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 145 Location: minnesota

hoa:
bud is a "salt of the earth" kind of guy who would do anything for his friends, he is hardly an idiot.
he just happens to be one of those well meaning guys who destroys everything he touches. we all know one or two.
the 686 onyx he has had for 3 years has sustained the following:
#1) cracked stock....there are better shotguns for 3" steel shot in the s.dakota goose pits than a 12ga over/under that barely weighs 7lbs, in my opinion.
#2) one of the locking pins that sit on either side of the barrels got bent when he tried to close the gun and a shell wasn't seated.......a hammer and punch along with a little filing took care of that Laughing

#3) the barrels stopped closing up 1/2 way thru a round of skeet one time due to an incredible amount of shooting crud that had gathered in the action......his SLAMMING SHUT of the barrels to finish the round had me cringing everytime he did it.
i have tried diplomatically as a good friend would that maybe a pump action 1300 or express 870 might be better suited for him, but after all it's his money Exclamation

the fact that his onyx is still on the job is quit a testament to the quality of beretta firearms.
in any event i was kind of hoping to get a scientific answer as to why this would have happened.

Guest

I'd feel for "Bud," but he brought this on himself. Hoppes No. 9 is a chemical solvent ... leave it on something (or leave something in it), and it will keep doing it's job. It's not like you can give it an instruction: "Just take out the fouling, then stop, please."

One friend of mine sounds a little like "Bud." Doesn't clean a 686 very often and leaves it stored in a soft case. I've tried to convince him there's a better way to go, but to no avail. Out of respect for a decent gun, I've cleaned it for him (after cleaning my own gun) the evening after a day's hunting. All I could do was give it a good clean & lube and put a coat of Rigs Universal on the exterior steel.

I truly don't understand guys who will shell out a grand or more on a gun and then neglect it. It's not like giving an O/U a good clean & lube is complicated, difficult or time consuming.

I've owned a half-dozen 686s or 687s and still have two. Given the minimum care, they are workhorse guns.

Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 145 Location: minnesota

amen to that mfg:
as a veteran citori owner i have been the same route with bud.
he has "perazzi taste and mossberg talent" Very Happy

i also didn't point out that in the past 4 months he has lost his little brother to suicide, and his dad to cancer.
given those circumstances, i'm sure many of us on this board would put a silly thing like a choke tube sitting in a bottle of solvent out of our minds also. this still doesn't condone some of his "unwitting ham-handedness" in the past, however as stated originally, i am curious from a scientific standpoint, not in defending a friends mistakes

Guest

Good lord, 870, that man's having a rough time. If a flush-fitting Mobil choke in 12 ga. will help him at all, PM me and I'll send you one in the same constriction as the one he screwed up. I've got a bunch of 'em. You can tell him you found it at a garage sale for $2, or something like that.

Re the chemistry, we'll probably need a chemist for an exact explanation, but I think the Hoppe's just kept on dissolving what it was in contact with and started on the steel of that tube. In one of his books, Michael McIntosh mentions it's wise to wipe up any Hoppes and follow with some oil, as a true solvent like Hoppes left on steel will eventually corrode the steel. Sounds like given 60 days to work, that Hoppes just started to eat the steel of Bud's choke tube.

I don't think this is a problem with the tubes. I've let Beretta's Mobil chokes soak overnight in carb clearner and followed with a wire brush, dry cloth and then a wipedown inside and out with RemOil, then a dry cloth again, and mine are dandy.

Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 145 Location: minnesota

mfg: thanks very much but he already got a new i.c. choke, he also has a full set of extended chokes,so he really wasn't out anything.
i let him shoot-up my last case of skeet ammo also........besides, it was that damn 12 ga ammo anyway Shocked

i clean my chokes in a similar fashion as you and i am very conscious about wiping away all bore solvents before oiling and storing.

I am certainly not a chemist, but the black finish left on the tube indicates that some type of mild acid is at work here. I'm guessing a mild phosphoric acid or perhaps selenic acid like what is used in cold blue, rust proofing, and metal pickling. That would also account for the steel becoming brittle over time as the chromium in the steel is attacked.

I've never used Hoppe's solvent. I've always used Dupont carburator cleaner which has phosphoric acid plus carbon emolients to remove heavy fouling, and I make darned certain to get it all out after with laquer thinner, followed by a patch treated with a good rust inhibiting oil.

Hoppe's will disolve a bronze brush in short order too so clean them off well with hot soapy water after using the stuff and they will last quite a while.
.

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

It took a while to find the recipe for Hoppe's, didn't have a bottle on hand since I haven't used the stuff in decades. Finally found the msds on a site devoted to providing safety info to law enforcement.
Anyway, it's about 10% aqueous NH3, which confirms my off-the-cuff guess that Bud's tube cracked from hydrogen embrittlement. Interstitial hydrogen atoms in the cubic crystalline structure of steel is definitely not a good thing.
It's a big potential problem in any ferrous alloy. Has even been seen as the cause of re-bar cracking after absorbing the H as the concrete cured.
Without seeing a SEM image it's all just a guess, but a moderately educated one. Smile

Pete

My bad, meant to type NH3 (ammonia). Have fixed it above.

Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 145 Location: minnesota

i like the sounds of that guess foursquare

HNO3 is nitric acid, aka aqua fortis, engraver's acid, azotic acid. Is that what you are refering to? Nitric acid will attack any and all metals. Its very corrosive and hygroscopic. That alone should warn folks not to leave Hoppe's solution in contact with barrel steels any longer than necessary. I'd even go so far as to scrub the bore with warm soapy water after using it--but I never have used the stuff.

Etching the bore is a real possibility. I'd be especially careful to clean any tube threads in the barrel. This would be a prime place for corrosion and etching.

Does anyone know the formula for the old G.I. bore cleaner we used to by in pint cans at A&N surplus stores for next to nothing? That stuff worked just fine and did not seem to harm steel if used correctly. It just smelled horrible. Most folks use Hoppe's because it smells pleasant.

Phosphoric acid is less corrosive on steel in mild solutions but attacks copper, guilding metal, and lead effectively enough. The fellow who turned my on to Dupont carb cleaner knew his stuff more than I realized. Now, I'm doubly grateful. However, he's been gone for some 15 years now.

Today's schedule 60 rebar has an epoxy coating on it to prevent the acidic type action Caused by the hydration or curing of concrete. Black bar is oxidized to slow the process down, similar to bluing. However, 7-11 mils of properly applied and cured epoxy is much more effective.

I use shooters choice. How bad is that for my barrels?

Aqueous ammonia is NH3 dissolved in water. It is sometime, incorrectly, referred to as NH4OH, or ammonium hydroxide. Ammonia is an extremely efficient copper solvent, which is why it is used in many traditional bore solvents.

HNO3 is completely different, and is not a component in Hoppes, according to the MSDS. Further, I cannot see any reason to use HNO3 in any gun cleaning application.

Nor can I. That's why I asked. I was just a little surprised. Typos, the spice of life. Laughing

Shooter's choice is a pretty good formula. It removes copper, guild metal, and lead fouling very nicely. It also loosens the plastic fouling from wads really well. However, make sure to clean up the bore completely after using it and follow up with a good rust preventative oil. I like mineral spirits to follow up shooter's choice followed with an oily patch. I'd also clean it off any wood finishes very quickly and thoroughly. It can be very tough on some types. It also eats broze cleaning brushes very quickly, so clean them well immediately after use or you'll lose them in a matter of hours.

Ammonia and ammoniated compounds are commonly used in metal polishes. Its in Flitz, Semi-Chrome, and Puma knife polish, plus Gel Gloss polish. It removes oxidation very nicely.