16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 22 Jul 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Texas

I've been reading at the posts on the board for a while and I now have a question of my own. Some years ago, I bought my first cartridge shotgun (I did muzzleloader shotguns before). Not having a lot of money at the time, I bought a Stevens 5100 in, of course, 16 ga. It and I have had a lot of fun in the ensuing years. It's in decent shape yet outside just a sliver of daylight between the right barrel and the receiver face, but the stock is now so badly cracked I need to replace or repair it as it's not safe to shoot as is. Naturally, when I started thinking about doing that work, other thoughts came to mind like, "It'd be nice to have choke tubes (full choke is a little tough in skeet), and maybe lengthen the cones, and...." My question centers around what point is it insane to "improve" a $250 shotgun. I'd love to have a "better gun", but I also want to end up with a SxS with double triggers, extractors, 2 3/4" chambers, and not a classic that I'd feel bad about putting chokes in or doing other work. I'm a firm believer in not molesting originals like the people that saw off beautiful old guns for "cowboy action shooting". Oh, and I still don't have that $4000 to put into a new shotgun. Ugly is fine with me. "Browned" barrels and a yellow pine stock would be fine. I just care about the effect on clays and birds.

So, would I be insane to send the barrels off to Brileys et al.? Or, does someone have a recommendation for a different make of gun that would fit my criteria for less money?

Thanks!

Welcome shooter. Your old gun has probably already made the decision for you. Sounds like it is 'off face'- wear at the hinge pin causing the gap between the brls and receiver. Time to retire your old friend.
You'll want to review the 'Buying a classic SxS?' thread and a CZ might be a good choice for you.

(BTW: I thought this was going to be about Sterlys/silk purse vs. Merkels/sows somethings Laughing

)

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

Revdoc, why would you tell him to retire his gun, when Mike Orlen will solder a shim on the hook for about $100, and bring it to as new condition on the face?

Briley's will choke tube it, but so will Carlson's, and it will be a few bucks cheaper. Me, I'd just open the existing chokes-you got two triggers, you should be able to come up with a combination that works. Cheaper yet.

Wenig's and others will set him up with a new stock, not likely yellow pine, but, cheap enough to keep his gun in the game. I've seen what a good wood guy can do with stocks I thought were total losses, and have been stunned at what can be done. Best to keep the original stock if thats what works for you, likely cheaper as well.

Never, ever discount the idea of fixing a gun that works for you. The best gun in the world is no good if you can't hit anything with it.

My Dad always said a gun shouldn't lay around broken, either. Fix it, or destroy it. Likely extreme, but his point was nothing is more worthless than a broken gun.

Get on it.
Best,
Ted

I think you need to look into your heart of heart and decide if you really want a new gun or you would want to keep the one you have been using. Either way you won't loose.
You can fix the one you have or pick up a very serviceable new or slightly used gun for about the same price.
As mentioned Mike Orlen has a good reputation and has fast service at a fair price. Check here
http://users.dls.net/~rdouglas/Mike%20Orlen%20Service%20and%20Prices.pdf

Dehann and CZ are both good low priced guns but may lack some of the features you feel you need.
You can Google them and have a look if you haven't already

My (admittedly limited) experience with mass produced american SxSs is that cracked stocks and off-face actions foretell more problems down the road-and usually sooner than later. I've also been 'guilty' of putting more money into a gun, with which I had an emotional attachment, than it was worth and shooter 16 may certainly choose to do that.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Back when wood wasn't quite as expensive as it is now, I had some gorgeous stuff put on an old Stevens 20ga. When I finished, what I had was a Stevens 20 with gorgeous wood. Sorta like putting a little extra makeup on an aging whore.

There are better guns out there, both American and European, for which you will not spend more than what you'll end up with in the 5100. And when you're done, it will still be a 5100.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

I can see a price tag of around $250-$350 for a shim, opening one choke, and a stock repair. He doesn't need an English trained 'smith for this work, and shouldn't pay for one, either. Even if he upgrades down the road, this will always be a great rainy day gun, or a loaner. 16 gauge 5100s don't seem to be going down in price in the gunlist, or, wherever I look. Even if he counts the money he paid at the beginning, he has about $600 into a gun that he has already used plenty, and will continue to use. Most doubles in the $600-$1000 price range need some work anyway (that is why they are 600-1000 bucks) and some need a lot of work. Better 600 into a 16 gauge 5100 than 1200 into a Belgian guild gun.

Whats not to like?

Best,
Ted

I'm biased cause I've got 3 5100's; I'd but a few hundred in any of mine in a heartbeat. SxS doubles are going up every day; you won't get anything better for less than $1000, and maybe not for that. JMHO.

Fin

Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 50 Location: john day, or

For replacement gunstock do a search for Boyd's gunstocks, somewhere around $60+. When fitting be sure thru-bolt pressure is on rear of action (Accu-glass fitting) and inside is relieved in area of hammers.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

I'm with birdawg

Joined: 22 Jul 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Texas

Wow. More response than I'd expected. Thanks! I see that this board is populated with a number of fellow romantics that understand getting attached to a gun which may or may not be worth it.

I can get wood for $40, so that's not a problem as long as I get around to finishing it eventually so that'll keep the gun in the game. The gun's only off face just enough to slide a sheet of paper into one corner of one barrel. There's no play when closed. I don't know, but I suspect that'll be fine for a while....

I happened across a gun show today and I had the opportunity to mount a few 16's that were far higher quality. One was a Spanish shotgun with a $4500 price tag (some make that starts with an "A", I forget) and a few Parkers, etc. I could feel the difference holding the more expensive guns, but so could my financial future. I also saw a nunber of old Stevens and realized how awesome my shotgun's condition is by comparison. Some people really abuse guns. Mine has perfect bores, still locks up tight and doesn't have any external pitting.

There was a CZ gun there and I wasn't impressed. It was a little abused, but I just didn't like the look. I will, however, check out the other recommendations. Granted, I really really want a better gun, but all finances are a balancing act, even if I'm not balancing it with a spouse. I also appreciate the tips on other gunsmiths. I hadn't shopped very far for the work (Briley's is a doable drive away), but it's good to know that some much cheaper options exist.

-Shalyn

I have a Stevens 311 which is in like new condition which I have thought about replacing the Mother of Toilet Seat birch with some decent walnut with a straight grip and having Mike Orlen install choke tubes. But whenever I "really" get to thinking about it I feel like I would be polishing a turd. Also when I compare the balance and weight of the 311 to my 4/53 something Larry Brown once said about a 311 handling like a pig on a shovel always comes to mind. Feels like the barrels would have to be shortened to about 24-25" to get the balance right. In the meantime I'll keep looking for a good used Ugartechea to replace it for a rainy day gun. But there is just something about owning an American made 16ga. SxS. Confused

Did I hear RevDoc say "Sterly" Question

Dennis

Have Mike Orlen shim the barrels back to on face, and have him open the chokes for you. I'd suggest 10 and 20 points of choke are a useful combination. You see that a lot in 16 ga. European doubles.

You can use spreader loads for up close birds through heavy cover. Use 3/4 and 7/8 ounce loads for small stuff without overthinning the patterns, and a cased wad (taped shot cup) to close the patterns up a bit for the long shots on tough days. 10 points of choke also throws a deadly pattern of 1 ounce # 6 shot from 20 yards to 35 easily enough. The .20 points is like an improved-modified choke that throws great patterns of #4 and #5 shot in 1-1/8 and 1-1/4 ounce loads for followup shots on bigger birds like pheasant. It will pattern well right out to 40 yards with 1-1/4 ounce of #5. A cased wad with 1-1/4 ounce of #4 will do the same thing and a bit further.

My Beretta 409 double has 10 and 20 points. It works so good, I had Mike Orlen open the Matador to the same combo. I've been using 3/4 ounce #9 loads for skeet in the Beretta. I use a spreader load in the right barrel for the close incoming shots if faced with that pair. I've not lost a single target I deserved. I also use a cased wad for 7/8 ounce #8 loads in either barrel. They crush targets out to 40 yards beautifully. Based on these results, I know the Beretta will be a very versitile and effective game gun with the chokes just as they came from the factory.

If the barrels have enough outside diameter, Mike could also install choke tubes. His work is at least as good as Briley's and is a lot more reasonable too.

Also, don't be so quick to discard that old stock. Epoxy and properly placed hand cut staples and dowels can often save an old stock. If the work is done properly, and mostly on the inside, the cracks will hardly show. A cleavor refinishing with one of the darker stains will also hide most of the work. It will be cheaper than replacing the stock unless you can find an original stock at a bargain price. That too is a possibility. These old guns are anything but rare. I've seen these stocks at gun shows fairly commonly. Numerich Arms might even have some in stock.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

No question 16's are going up in price (as are all doubles), and even the bottomfeeder guns have been pushed up thanks to the Cowboy Action boys. That being said, I'd evaluate a Stevens pretty darned carefully before I sunk over $500 in it. Just picked up a Hunter Fulton 16, which I think is a much better gun, will be safely under $600 in it with a couple minor tweaks--and it's tight, has excellent bores, stock needs neither repair nor replacement. So they are out there, although you have to do a bit of looking. Last I recall, Thad Scott had a Manufrance Robust 16 that sounded pretty decent, similar money. Not unusual to find French or Belgian guild guns for under $1,000, and as long as you're not planning to shoot real heavy loads through them, they are much better guns IMO than a Stevens--or than my Hunter Fulton, for that matter (but it's intended as a backup pheasant gun, maybe even a turkey gun). Chase down a Marlin 90, if you don't mind barrels on top of each other rather than sxs.

Although I wish it were a bit lighter, the new CZ 16 is also a lot of gun for under $900.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total*

No doubt about it Larry, 16 ga doubles are selling for 2-3 times the price of the same gun 5 years ago. Even the price on these old guns is now climbing in New England where the 16 has not been real popular compared to 20 and 28 ga guns. That too is changing by the day.

I recently had conversation with an old friend about the Beretta 409 I got last year. He told me that the price I paid was about right. However, he was a bit behind the times on his estimate based on his out of date info. I did some checking. He was about dead on the money up until two to three years ago in this region. Not anymore. The internet is now driving the price of guns upwards across the nation.

I was lucky enough to stumble into a deal based on old pricing. However, that dealer found out the facts several weeks later and offered me considerably more than what I paid to buy it back--but hardly enough to replace it if I had. Momma didn't raise any fools. I still have it and probably always will 'til I'm too old to hunt.

I'd advice anyone who has a good one not to be so quick to sell it. Considering what they will pay for a replacement, they will not gain a thing. The trend is upwards and will likely continue considering how fast the dollar is falling in value.

I think that come two to three years from now, many of these guns are going to be even more costly, especially the CZ guns and all imports in general. If you are going to buy a CZ, do it now, but look at the gun before you buy. They do vary in quality gun to gun considerably, especially in barrel regulation and straightness. Wood too. Pick caefully and you will win.

If you bag a good one, it will be worth considerably more to you in 5 to 10 years. I really doubt the quality of the next few runs will be as good either. The dollar will buy less, including quality. That is usually how the market works in times like these.

When a gun gets hot, the price goes up and the quality down as the importer tries to hold the price line as well as fill orders. The demand usually outstrips factory capacity, so corners get cut. Demand for materials goes up, so the quality of available stocks suffers. The work force gets stressed too. Then the demand cools off, and the guns get discontinued, because the market is glutted. However, the good ones will maintain their value as attrition to use and breakage takes its toll. The ones on the used market at first will be the ones with problems like crooked barrels, trigger problems, plain wood and ill fitting parts etc.. We will not see the good ones for at least a generation. the folks who have good ones will keep them until they are too old to hunt.