16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 7

****Keep in mind I am only considering O/U 16s at this time. I know this statement will cause some of you to twitch uncontrollably. I apologize for any discomfort I will cause or have caused you.****

Yesterday I had a nice conversation with a reputable double gun dealer (recommended by a member of this forum). I discussed my interest in the B. Rizzini Aurum (and Aurum light) and the Merkel 2016EL or 2116EL. He provided his input:

1) He felt the scaled frame 16 ga Aurum balanced a little better than the 16ga Aurum light. I think he said the Aurum was a true scaled 16 ga frame and the Aurum light was not. I could be mistaken.

2) He likes the actions on the 201e or 203e better than the 2016el or 2116el and for a similar price were a better buy....in his opinion. Of the 201/203 I have seen, the weight at just under 7 lbs has been more than I wanted and they also had cheek piece butt stocks of which I am not a fan. I did see a 303el that I really liked, but higher price tag gives me pause.

He didn't say I shouldn't consider one or more of the models, but he had his preferences and provided his opinion on how he would rank them.

I have been on the fence about a 2016EL for some time now (approx 8 months). I like the look of the gun and the weight at 6 lbs seemed ideal for grouse and woodcock. With M/F barrels I would want to open them up and didn't have a problem doing that. But at the same time I wasn't convinced. In talking with him, I think I will pass on this gun.

I have found a few nice Aurums on line and the price at approx. $3,400 seemed reasonable based on other prices I have seen. At 6.5 lbs it was a tad heavier than I had hoped for a 28" double.

At the same time I saw a couple Browning Citori Featherlights for around $1,600 and a tad under 6 lbs. The guns are uninspiring, but seem decent.

I can afford either. Should I run from one or the other (or both)? I am looking to test the O/U and will hunt it in typical Northeast grouse/woodcock cover. For a test I don't feel the need to buy an exceptional gun and beat it up in the brush. If I don't find improved performance with the O/U or just don't like hunting with the O/U I will be more than happy to switch back to the SxS. I like SxS better. As previously discussed in my other thread, I just seem to shoot the O/U better and wanted to give a legitimate test for a season. But I don't want to carry a complete piece of crap either.

Thoughts? Other O/U recommendations in the 28" - 30" barrel and 6 to 6.5 lb range?

Thanks.

Charlie

Joined: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 591 Location: SoCal-FL- NYC

The aurum is a great gun. I prefer the slighter more fine balancing of that gun over the merkle. I remember that offering before Italy joined the EU and switched from lire to euro. It was a bargain and a lot of gun for the money. But what do I know, I'm just a dago wop partial to the look and feel of Italian guns in general. Same goes for the browning, they always feel like a 2x4 in my hands compared to the rizzini's. In fact I feel the same way when comparing perazzi to krieghoff too.

And am I the only one that thinks that 28" barel is pushing the limits of a nice pointing 16ga, 30 seems ridiculous to me.

Either way they are all nice guns when chambered in 16 and none of them would be considered "a piece of crap".

Gun balance is relatviely important when selecting a hunting double IMO. However, balance can be modified to suit relatively easily with the judicious redistribution of a small amount of weight.

Gun weight is also relatively important. As long as a gun is relatively well balanced and not exceptionally heavy or light for gauge, a few ounces up or down isn't critical IMO.

To me, the heart and soul of any SxS or O/U double gun is an accruately regulated set of barrels. In short, I want any double to place both pattern centers as close to dead on the same spot as possible down range. The barrels must be accurately regulated at the factory, or they will be forever inaccurate. They can't be acceptably corrected after the fact in all but a few very rare cases. And it is never an inexpensive process regardless of the results.

In the case of a newly purchased, inaccurate double, very few manufactures will replace the barrels or the gun under warranty or offer a refund w/o a tremendous amount of time, trouble and proof provided by the purchaser. In many cases, the purchaser will be stuck with the gun until he sells it off or trades it to the next victim. That is just how it is. Period.

I can speak for the accuracy of any Perazzi, Kreighoff, Merkel, or any of the 16 ga. Browning Citori models (but not all of the 12 thru 410 models) I've examined, shot, and/or owned.

I can't say the same for all of the various Rizzini doubles I've examined or shot. Some are well regulated. Some aren't. Look very carefully before you buy or you might not like the results. Take the opportunity to test fire any used double or pass on it if you can't get the seller to agree to an after the sale shoot test. Good luck with your selection.

Member Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 328

Have you looked at Fausti.
6.5 Lbs and on a 16ga. frame.

Charlie where are from in the north east? I have a Rizzini and a Citori in 16 gauge you can shoot both. I have had the Citori for 20 plus years like it. I have the Rizzini for 3 or 4 and love it. I broke a main spring in the Rizzini after about 10k rounds. I need some firing pin work on the Browning It has light firing pin strikes on the bottom Barrel from time to time and the ejectors have some issues from time to time. The chambers on the Citori will rust in 24 hours if I don't clean the gun right away I don't have that problem with any other gun I own. Both shoot right were there pointed. I sold a 2003 Grade 6 16 gauge Citori that had the lower barrel issues the guy I sold it too said he would put a new pin in it but a new gun shouldn't need a new pin. Never had a misfire with the Rizzini or all the old doubles I own. I did own a Merkel 47E that was way out of regulation.

Chamber rusting could definately be a problem in some of the pre-1986 Citori models. After 1986, the chambers have all been chrome lined to eliminate the problem. Since the the 16 ga. Citori models were first issued in 1988, they all have chrome lined chambers. So PP's gun is atypical or has been modified after the fact. None of the chambers in any of my post-1986 models have ever rusted (and that is a bunch).

Merkel assembles all it's double gun barrel sets in house. Same for Perazzi. Kreighoff, Blazer, Miroku, and a few other manufacturers of mass produced doubles. The majority of today's contract production import brands outsource the job to generic barrel manufacturers who make them under contract for anyone.

Merkel and a few other companies then take it up one more notch. They shoot test all their double guns for function and accuracy before they leave the factory. Perazzi, Kreighhoff, Blazer, and a few others do the same. That is one of the reasons why these top notch brands are more expensive than the average mass produced imported double.

Most of the remaining brands are not shoot tested for accuracy. Some brands like Miroku collimate all their barrels to inspect how accurately they are lined up and assembled for proper regulation. Most brands which outsource have barrels which are assumed to be made correctly after a token percentage are inspected and/or collimated.

Whatever happens to guns after they leave the factory can't be accounted for. Sometimes perfectly good doubles get messed with in various ways for unsound reasons by folks who don't know squat about what they are doing. Having the chokes modified by the unskilled or trimming barrels down are the two most common ways to screw up a well regulated set of barrels. Then the screwed up ones often get passed on to the unsuspecting. Just how it is.

So my best advice is to always shoot test the used double gun you are considering to buy or have someone who knows what well regulated barrels look like examine it for you before you put the money on the counter. Eyeballing the bores of a new double gun is a must too, especially for those brands which outsource their barrels. Doing so helps eliminate unpleasant surprises if you know what to look for. Best not assume anything when it comes to double gun accuracy. Good luck with your purchase.

My 16 gauge Citori was bought new never been messed with chambers rust. The old browning didn't have FTF's very often in the 80's a few more in the 90's and more frequent in the 2000's. I chalked it up to wear and tear The 2003 Grade 6 came out of the Box with FTF"s just one man's experience. I don't dislike the Citori I just like the Rizzini more. It is a better finished gun balances and moves better in my hands. Now I have not handled and bought 1000's or been involved with the manufacture of the Brownings like 16gg and I'm not emotionally attached to them either just an honest opinion. Every gun I own doesn't have to be the best in everyone else's opinion it's only got to be the best in my hands.

For the record, I've never been directly involved with any gun manufacturer, nor am I emotionally attached to any inanimate object. To me, guns are simply tools. Some are betterthn others for various reasons and are better values for the money spent on them. Those are the ones I choose.

My experience with what constitutes a well regulated set of double gun barrels stems from having had a few bad experiences with Browning Citori barrels and a couple of Beretta 680 trap models. Fortunately, none of these experiences involve any 16 ga Citori model. These experiences were all costly in time, effort, and in the case of the badly assembled Beretta barrels, caused deep resentment and frustration. This is due to an unyeilding warranty policy (Beretta CS just plain refuses to admit they make mistakes regardless of how deep the evidence is piled against them.)

From these experiences, I've learned to be cautious and advise the same for any prospective double gun buyer. Learning to spot regulation problems and looking very carefully before buying any double gun save a lot of frustration and disappointment. You all can take it for what it's worth to you.

16gg, I see, what you did to bring about the 16ga BPS was campaigning!

How silly of me, should have known you were out campaigning.

The only thing I have done lately is reply to BS posts by you.

Dale

Member Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 325

"Friendliest place on the internet".

Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 7

I want to thank everyone for their input. I went with the Rizzini Aurum. A little fancier than the Citori and less money then the Merkel. It's a bit of an experiment for me at this point so I didn't need to spend the extra money for a much nicer gun, but I wanted something a little nicer than the Citori..........although Bob Hunter has a pretty nice custom citori in 16 gauge that I wouldn't mind as a gift if one of you is so inclined.