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JNW
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
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Location: Twin Cities, MN

I load 3/4 oz in RGLs and 7/8 oz in Federales with the DR16 wad. Both loads give superb crimps, pattern well and, if I may say so, have helped me do quite well in multiple SxS tournaments. Yesterday I shot my Ithaca Flues that is SKT/LM with 3/4 oz of 8s. I broke targets out to 35 and 40 yards consistently and with authority. Could not do that with poor ammunition. For those that don't like DR16s, more for me:)
Shoot what makes you happy,
Jeff
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:51 am  Reply with quote
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Dogchaser37 wrote:
Mike,

I would I think that many of us can reload the DR in an RGL. Never had any problems with it with 3/4 oz. loads. But I do think that 7/8 oz. is a bit tight with that combo, at least with my powder choice of Universal.

3/4 oz in an RGL with the DR 16 fits just fine.


Based on my experience, I think 16 grains of Green Dot would solve the problem nicely DC. It works for either the 3/4 or 7/8 ounce shot load weights in the RGL hull.

I'm also sure you are already aware of the importance of correctly adjusting the crimp starter down a bit for 3/4 ounce loads and up a bit for the 7/8 ounce loads. Doing so helps to get better formed and finished crimps. I'm including it and the following for others who may have yet to figure out some of the techniques used when reloading with any of these specialized wads designed for extra light shot loads.

I've found that zero wad seating pressure works best for DR16 wads and all others which have similarly long compression sections (the WW12L 24 gram wad as an example). I first make sure the shot/wad/ powder column of my load will allow enough hull mouth to get well formed crimps. I've found that somewhere around 5/16 inch of hull mouth above the shot column is about right for most 16 gauge loads. I check by gently seating a wad on the powder charge with a dowel, drop a shot charge in, and then examine the remaining hull mouth. If all looks okay, I then proceed to adjust my press.

I begin by dumping the shot and positioning the hull w/ the seated wad at the wad seating station after I've loosened the wad seating ram so it can slide freely up out of the way. I then pull the press handle completely down and manually seat the ram down w/o applying any pressure to the wad. I can then lock the ram in the correct setting with the retaining screw before releasing the press handle. That is all that's needed to perfectly adjust the wad ram w/o any guess work.

If the shot column is at the correct height with zero wad pressure to begin with, then it is possible to let the downward pressure applied at the crimping station do the work of fully seating the wad on the powder charge. As long as the crimp starter has been adjusted to allow the correct amount of hull mouth be incorporated into initially forming the crimp folds, then the wad will compress just enough to allow perfectly formed crimps w/o becoming cocked and/or over compressed.

The above press adjusting and wad ram setting technique works to perfection in my experience. Hope the info helps others here.
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3crosses
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:15 am  Reply with quote
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2 things.
I load 3/4 oz in rgls also. And 7/8 in the winchester (chedite) hull.
The RGL used to be a PITA. Because the case mouth doesn't open up as nicely as the chedite hull.
I say used to be a PITA, as I have solved the problem with the RGL case mouth.
I have an old set of 12 ga dies for a sizemaster. I took the primer punch from the 12 ga dies and put it in a drill press. About 5 seconds of spinning a RGL around the 'mandrel' and I have now have open case mouths.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:04 pm  Reply with quote
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GG,

Thanks for the tip about Green Dot, but it won't cycle my 1100.


With Universal and 7/8 oz. loads....it doesn't matter how you manipulate/adjust the press, the wad column is too high in an RGL, especially with a 9000G.

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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:17 pm  Reply with quote
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Thought I just might jump on here after talking with Ole Mike on the phone , ( by the way thanks Mike I do appreciate the visit ) and what do I see , LOL the same ole thing over and over , does it never end ?

First off I will in all likely hood not get back on here for some time for I am getting ready to go to CO. to bow hunt for elk , that said I will address some of the garbage in and the garbage out that still permeates the board.

First off Shooting Souix you made it QUITE CLEAR just what kind of folks you are at the Reservation back in 08 , everyone knows just what went on and what happened and for that matter I for one do not care , I wish you a wonderful life free from that nasty ole DR 16 and this board . B.E.S.T. Regards.


To address the next point of contention , I dare anyone anywhere to find a wad in any gauge that will match the SD in pressure and FPS of the DR 16 , it cannot be done this is the most consistent wad on the planet .


If one is a shooter then they all know that extreme spread in velocity is the single most important criteria for the wingshooter , if your not a shooter then one will not understand this , for those that do not understand this , one little bit of wisdom applies here SHOOT CLOSER TO THE TARGET !

To paraphrase the above , consistency it the MOST IMPORTANT PART IN CONECTING WITH FLYING TARGETS and how close the load is pointed in relationship to the target .


If you want a different wad then pony up the money , put the sketch on a napkin and get er done and I will try a bag , you might get lucky and nail it in one .

Mark , Mike and Mike thanks for being so knowledgeable and thanks to Crazy Bill for lots of fun , oh by the way are you coming up for the opener I understand the birds are back , I am not going to Alaska I cant stand doc for that many hours .

Best Regards Nick
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skeettx
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:41 pm  Reply with quote
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Nick
Enjoyed the visit,
What fun, what fun
Have a GREAT elk hunt
Mike

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:51 pm  Reply with quote
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Charles Hammack, "....First off Shooting Souix you made it QUITE CLEAR just what kind of folks you are at the Reservation back in 08 , everyone knows just what went on and what happened..."

BINGO!!! and amen to that. Laughing


Charles again, "... If you want different wad then pony up the money , put the sketch on a napkin and get er done... Best Regards Nick"

Yup. Well said Nick. Wink

Some folks wouldn't know a kindness from a corn holin" Laughing
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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:33 am  Reply with quote
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I tried last night to put the most important thank you in and the internet went on a trip.

Thank you GG, the wad would have never taken place if it were not for you.

Thanks to all my friends. It has been a fun time indeed.

Now back to refinishing old air rifles and getting ready for CO.

Regards. Nick
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:25 pm  Reply with quote
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Any one who appreciates what a 16 can do with these delightful to shoot 3/4 and 7/8 ounce loads owes you a debt of gratitude Nick. So once again, thank you very much. Have fun in Colorado.
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kgb
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:55 pm  Reply with quote
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kgb wrote:
Agree with some difficulties using the DR in RGLs on a progressive press (or mine at least), usually with cocked/crushed wads, so I just use them in other hulls. Remington or G-wads go in the Rem hulls, although I still occasionally get a cocked Remington wad in them.

Reloading Utopia would be to run 16s through the press as quickly as it flawlessly processes 12's. So far the limiting factor seems to be the components.


Updating my experiences with the DR-16 in a Cheddite hull as loaded by Herters and sold by Cabela's.

Data shows 15.5gr of Green Dot with 3/4oz of shot in a 2.5" Cheddite hull with an SG-16 wad at just over 1150fps and relatively low pressure of 7300psi http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16510 which cranked up to just over 10500psi with 20gr of the same powder. I do not have any Cheddite 209 primers, and swapping over to NobelSport 209s it seemed safe to use that lower 15.5gr charge with a DR16 wad. Changing the wad AND primer in a recipe is admittedly unwise, however with the additional tested data here http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15994 showing 16gr of Green Dot with the DR16 wad in an RGL hull with the Federal 209A primer yielding 1240fps and 11,600psi with 7/8oz of shot it seemed reasonable. I base that on my observations that the RGL hulls GENERALLY bring out higher pressures than the Cheddite type and the Federal 209A GENERALLY produces higher pressures than other types. For what it's worth, I have seen the NobelSport primers listed as roughly equivalent to WW209s in pressure generation. I generally load them in 12ga target loading recipes where a variety of primers shows little variation in pressure with the rest of the combinations.

Bottom line, of course, this is untested data, assembled more to see how the combination built up with the Herters/Cheddite case and DR16 wad. I wound up loading them in both 3/4oz and 7/8oz versions. In making 150 shells the loss turned out to be 11 cases. For the most part these occurred when the case walls collapsed within 3/4" of the crimp, and 6 of these occured within the first 50 after which I adjusted the final crimp/finishing die very slightly to ease the total pressure. A couple other cases just turned up deformed out of the die and I did not feel any difference in the resistance of the press arm. I don't recall having this problem with Winchester straight wall cases that I believe are by the same manufacturer.

Two cases were lost when the wad guide slipped from the pressure I must apply on it when loading DR16 wads to keep the guide fingers in the case mouth as the plastic passes through. This is not required with Remington or Guilandi wads unless RGL hulls are used with the latter style, although it is required with ALL wads when loading short, 2.5" cases. This appears to be due to the wad guide being at a fixed height in relation to the cases-something about the DR16 has the base portion popping through the guide as it passes the pressure provided by the guide fingers, and the spring-loaded guide then rises to leave the base of the wad perched in the air above the case to catch it and result in mayhem. Finger pressure to hold the guide down so that the fingers do not leave the case mouth until released is the cure for that issue. The legs of the DR16 cushioning section are recessed where they contact the base portion of the wad, and the difference I see from the Remingtons in particular is that the Rem is essentially a full-diameter cylinder for its length. Or at least the wad guide fingers see it as such. The G-wads have an air space above the cupped base portion, but being shorter and of apparently denser plastic I am guessing some combination of features of their design keeps this from being a problem. I also suspect this is somewhat limited to the P-W 900 press design--if another press has a movable wad guide then none of this should be an issue.

As stated, the solution is in holding down the wad guide for the operation of seating the wad. Maybe lightening up the return spring would solve the issue with finality, but it's easy enough to use my manual fix. I did have one shell come through the process with a severely recessed crimp and--a nice thing about the Herters plastic--I could see into the shell to find the wad was cocked in the hull. Reclaiming and weighing failed shell shot and powder showed the charges to be 15.4-15.6gr and the 3/4oz shot charges were each within 3gr of what my scale indicated for 3/4oz--not bad with #8 shot.

As for the buildup with each shot charge, 7/8oz loadings showed the wads lightly compressed and 3/4oz-ers looked generally un-compressed. There is no wad pressure setting for my press. I back off the seating ram enough to get the wad mostly down at the end of the seating motion then lower the threaded ram with a screwdriver until I feel resistance of the wad on the powder. The final crimp provides wad compression (or not, as the case may be) and lightly rounds the mouth of the loaded shell. With these Herters cases the finished shells turned out looking very nice excepting a few where the crimp starter didn't catch or create all 6 folds. I've shot 50 of them so far and am happy with the results. 50 of them I acually built up using American Select with intent of sending some for testing if I can decide I like them better as 7/8oz or 3/4oz. This is the last of 4lbs of Green Dot I've had around for 7 years. Having switched to AS for 12ga target loads I'd like to find a 16ga combination or two for that powder as well. There are good 7/8oz loads out there using AS in 2.5" hulls with G-wads, a good DR16 recipe will help me work through the case of them I bought a little while back!

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byrdog
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:10 am  Reply with quote
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I use 15grs AS for my target shooting. using the same components you are.

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kgb
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:14 am  Reply with quote
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Byrdog, I've looked up two tested rounds with AS using Cheddite hulls and DR16 wads.

18gr with 3/4oz of shot and a Winchester 209 primer for 1339fps and 9480psi

17gr with 7/8oz of shot and a Cheddite 209 primer for 1278fps and 9600psi

At 15.5gr of AS these build up well, I don't imagine going up to the listed charges would be a hazard to a solid crimp. Haven't shot the 3/4oz trial load yet, but the 7/8oz version burned cleanly enough and broke skeet targets. Most everything I load in 12 and 16 is geared toward 1200fps or a bit slower, but up to 1300fps should be workable as well especially with the lighter shot charges. I believe the next bushing up in my press goes to 16.5 of American Select and based on the above I would think it'd be sweet with 3/4oz of shot.

I've also cut down a number of hulls to 2.5", don't know how the DR16 wad will fit in those but my older M12 will not eject full-length Cheddite empties. If the 3/4oz combination loads up well in the short hull I think it'll be sweet for that gun.

FWIW, I do not split the petals of the DR16.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:46 am  Reply with quote
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I know that the load can be larger I just like 15g w .875 for shorts I use the gulandi short wad its real simple I use PW 375 loader so to go from 2.75 to 2.5 all I change is the die and the wad.

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kgb
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:33 pm  Reply with quote
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All 8 dies on my press have been cut down to load 2.5", adjustments to the press involve lowering the crimp starter and final crimp mechanisms. Holding down the wad guide is automatic for me now when loading 16ga, so no change with that. I've loaded your 7/8oz combination in the short Cheddites, will have to try 3/4oz using the same but with a DR16.

I shot a box each of the 3/4oz 2 3/4" rounds today, finding several off-sounding shells with Green Dot and a fair amount of powder residue. 15.5 of AS was much cleaner and only 2 rounds sounded off, but both loadings broke clays.
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
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Charles Hammack - thanks for taking the time, making the effort and spending time and money on developing the DR16. It's a real boon to us 16 ga folks.

kgb wrote:
kgb wrote:
Agree with some difficulties using the DR in RGLs on a progressive press (or mine at least), usually with cocked/crushed wads, so I just use them in other hulls. Remington or G-wads go in the Rem hulls, although I still occasionally get a cocked Remington wad in them.

Reloading Utopia would be to run 16s through the press as quickly as it flawlessly processes 12's. So far the limiting factor seems to be the components.


Updating my experiences with the DR-16 in a Cheddite hull as loaded by Herters and sold by Cabela's.

...

Bottom line, of course, this is untested data, assembled more to see how the combination built up with the Herters/Cheddite case and DR16 wad. I wound up loading them in both 3/4oz and 7/8oz versions. In making 150 shells the loss turned out to be 11 cases. For the most part these occurred when the case walls collapsed within 3/4" of the crimp, and 6 of these occured within the first 50 after which I adjusted the final crimp/finishing die very slightly to ease the total pressure. A couple other cases just turned up deformed out of the die and I did not feel any difference in the resistance of the press arm. I don't recall having this problem with Winchester straight wall cases that I believe are by the same manufacturer.
...


I've had related experiences when I'm opening factory-loaded Herters'/Cheddites so I can cut them down to 2 1/2". The plastic seems to be quite soft and tears easily, far more easily than Federal/Estate hulls. It's really annoying. I have some primed Cheddite hulls (red, not purple) I bought that way a while back and have to check against the Herters.
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