16ga.com ~ View topic - Lead vs Swing or How to best hit a flying object

In a previous thread, JNF wrote,

"The concept of lead is an entirely different topic. It will depend on which technique you use and when you can apply it. The vast majority of shots at flushing birds will be relatively shallow angles going away and a subtle swing through will get the bird with very little to no perceived lead. A rooster flying down the line perpendicular to a group of hunters with a prairie tailwind behind him will require perceived lead by many, especially if shooting maintained lead or pull away. I shoot all methods and I certainly see lead on shots in the field. I even hit some of them. I also shoot about 8-10K targets a year, many of them with game guns. I shot more when I used to compete. It's difficult to say what others see, or more correctly perceive, when they are shooting. I've given enough lessons to know we all interpret visual information differently."
Regards,
Jeff

Perception is the more correct word Jeff. However, we do not perceive anything with our eyes. They are simply adjustable lenses. Our brains both control these lenses through muscle memory and also translate the light taken in through the eyes into meaningful perceptions or images of the mind if you will. So in short, we perceive with our minds. All we really do is translate the images we perceive.

Our perceptions can change over time through our experiences or what we learn and remember both on a conscious and subconscious level. In short, we learn as we go, and that learning or experience shapes our perceptions and improves our ability to perform different tasks.

Wing shooting is task best performed without conscious thought. It is very much a function of subconscious mind over matter. I believe the most accomplished wing shooters perform best when they rely on their subconscious minds to execute the shot. They do not consciously think their way through the shooting process. They simply rely on their innate sense of timing honed to perfection through training or practice if you will. The best shooters focus their eyes and their minds on the target (they concentrate on the moving target), and let the shot sequence flow as one well coordinated, smooth movement of body and gun to and through the target without thinking about it.

Two eyed shooters don't see the barrel and the target on a single plane like one eyed shooters. Two eyed shooters clearly see the target, but the barrel is a blur. If they clearly see the barrel and or the gap between the target and the barrel, then they have stopped focusing on the target and usually miss because they have lost concentration on the target and they hesitate a bit. They lose their innate sense of timing and miss behind the bird or target most of the time.

One eyed shooters can see both the target and the barrel on the same focal plane, because they are not using their binocular vision. Howeve, even one eyed shooters must concentrate on the target or they tend to hesitate to pull the trigger at the exactly right moment. In short, they also lose their innate sense of timing and slow or stop their swing at the moment they pull the trigger which also results in a miss.

I believe we slow or stop our swing, because we do not have enough confidence in our perception of what is taking place. We lose focus and concentration on the target, which breaks our innate sense of timing, because our conscious minds tell us to be cautious. In short, we become scared we will miss. We then hesitate and shoot behind the flying target.

The only way I know to overcome the fear of missing is to practice. Practice builds confidence in our innate sense of timing. We swing our guns to and through the target with confidence, and we hit it, because we are not worried about missing. We don't need to clearly see the lead, because we are concentrating on the target. Our well trained sense of timing allows us to subconsciously know we have reached the exactly right moment to pull the trigger as we swing through it.

Like I said, lead is a four letter word in my book. A confident swing is the thing that breaks the clay or downs the bird. At least, that is how I perceive it.

Member Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 1863 Location: Wisconsin

If the eyes focus on the target, the mind tells the hands how to move the barrel(s) for the correct lead. If you let the barrels block out the target, even for an instant, the hands will slow or stop, resulting in a miss behind. If you marvel at the sight of the target when you should be pulling the trigger, you have spent enough time looking at it to question your instincts. Move the barrels to the target and pull the trigger when the mount is complete.

It's fine to think about the process before you make the shot, but if you give yourself time to think about it during the mount and shoot, you are asking luck to make up the difference. The best gunners for target shooting I have met are engineers; they create a plan and eliminate thinking during the process because they execute like machines. Most people, and engineers, shoot true pairs better than report pair targets because they don't have time to think about it. This gives instinct a chance and eliminates thinking during execution.

All of these concepts are meaningless without good gun fit, a consistent mount, and lots of practice. It took me 45 years to learn this and I thoroughly enjoyed the ride.

Reno

I was taught the swing through method via many hours on a skeet field with my gun un mounted and the bird flew at the whim of the button man. With my eyes on the bird, I mount the gun and coming up from behind the bird, I swing through the bird's flight path. Subconsciously my brain does the rest and the trigger is pulled when the right lead has been established. As mentioned above, a consistent gun mount is mandatory and my go to guns have been fitted to me.

I was taught the swing through method via many hours on a skeet field with my gun un mounted and the bird flew at the whim of the button man. With my eyes on the bird, I mount the gun and coming up from behind the bird, I swing through the bird's flight path. Subconsciously my brain does the rest and the trigger is pulled when the right lead has been established.

Just a tidbit here shooting is mathematical in theory and instinctual in form. If you practice enough to develop a style and confidence to insert the gun into the lead meaning ahead of the target. If you are ahead you are in position to break or kill it at all times through the process. At no time can you break or kill a target if you are behind. The best taught and best instinctual shooters have a smooth unrushed mount to the lead with very little gun movement efficacy of movement and time. You are definitely aware of the lead of different targets you don't see the lead but the subconscious makes that adjustment if you shoot enough. On day's I'm seeing the lead I work real hard and come up short on the score sheet. On days when the targets look big and slow my gun is in front and controls the target at all times everything is in slow motion. I can break a target early and fast with little swing and effort. Like 16 GG said practice helps you automatically pick insertion and breakpoints without thinking which makes you react when a Grouse busts no time to make a plan at this point. Just don't develop an exaggerated swing might work at the skeet field not in the bird fields. Up your percentages and hits try to keep your muzzle in front at all times its the only place you can hit a flying target. Also shoot all the clay games at different clubs so you don't get into spot shooting and rhythms that lead you to believe your better than you are. We shoot a different sporting clays club every weekend looking at and shooting different presentations in different settings helps a ton. 25 straight on the skeet field with a pre-mounted gun won't help a whole lot when your on a wooded hill side shooting birds with feathers at all different angles and distances.

Just a tidbit here shooting is mathematical in theory and instinctual in form. If you practice enough to develop a style and confidence to insert the gun into the lead meaning ahead of the target. If you are ahead you are in position to break or kill it at all times through the process. At no time can you break or kill a target if you are behind. The best taught and best instinctual shooters have a smooth unrushed mount to the lead with very little gun movement efficacy of movement and time. You are definitely aware of the lead of different targets you don't see the lead but the subconscious makes that adjustment if you shoot enough. On day's I'm seeing the lead I work real hard and come up short on the score sheet. On days when the targets look big and slow my gun is in front and controls the target at all times everything is in slow motion. I can break a target early and fast with little swing and effort. Like 16 GG said practice helps you automatically pick insertion and breakpoints without thinking which makes you react when a Grouse busts no time to make a plan at this point. Just don't develop an exaggerated swing might work at the skeet field not in the bird fields. Up your percentages and hits try to keep your muzzle in front at all times its the only place you can hit a flying target. Also shoot all the clay games at different clubs so you don't get into spot shooting and rhythms that lead you to believe your better than you are. We shoot a different sporting clays club every weekend looking at and shooting different presentations in different settings helps a ton. 25 straight on the skeet field with a pre-mounted gun won't help a whole lot when your on a wooded hill side shooting birds with feathers at all different angles and distances. I guess any method to get started is a good one but as you shoot more and think less the muzzle ends up in front where it should be.

Or chase it and use a stick

Member Joined: 15 Mar 2007 Posts: 601 Location: Virginia

Looks like the topic has forced a couple posters to shoot twice. Apparently they didn't have enough lead with the first shot! Laughing

Dan

Member Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 1863 Location: Wisconsin

Member Joined: 02 Sep 2010 Posts: 829 Location: SW Ohio

One of the problems with swing thru is that the gun is moving faster than the bird. Our eyes are naturally attracted to then faster moving object, i.e. the wings of a flying bird. With training and discipline we can force our focus on the target or on the head or beak of the bird. I constantly try to practice that as I walk around my yard and a dove flushes, I now immediately lock on the head, but it took lots of practice and a "hard" focus.
For most targets I like to insert the moving gun just ahead of the target and accelerate away, as long as I stay hard focused and not "check" I am good, my subconscious fires the gun for me. I will at times use all methods, but for me on a steady diet of swing thru, the target looks so fast, if I start ahead of it I can slow it down to where it seems easy.
Perception if everything.

Sorry guy's that was a double tap don't know how to remove.

Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 1358 Location: Twin Cities, MN

Actually, Two Pipe, it looks like their computer "doubled". They should have it looked at, that's just not safe!
Jeff

Member Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 1863 Location: Wisconsin

Oh my gosh it just gets better! I spewed soda when I read that! Doubling happens. A buddy of mine obliterated a crow I called and when I turned around to talk to him he was sprawled out in the back of the hide; he had pulled both triggers on my 3" chambered Hercules.

It's easy to submit twice on this site. I'm mighty proud they chimed in. Reno

Member Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 328

I have never thought about it much. I just seem to point the barrel in front of the bird and pull the trigger. Not sustained lead, not swing through, Just point in front and shoot.

And I am not a bad shot.

Member Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 1863 Location: Wisconsin

That's the point 3x's; when you have or take the time to think about it, you cheat yourself. Gunners spend time trying different methods to find the one that works for them, practice the method, and execute. Some of the best shots I know shoot just like you!

Reno