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Winchester21
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:34 pm  Reply with quote
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I know that this is a 16ga forum but I thought I should still bring this to your attention because many of us also shoot 12ga. Earlier this year I picked up 3 flats of 12ga 2-3/4" #8 Estate shells made in France. I gave one of them to my nephew. Both he and several of his friends who used it in their guns had Extreme Extraction problems with some of it - meaning that it didn't even begin to extract. Some of their guns were pumps, some autos, some O/U's.

When I finally got around to trying it in my Red Label I had these same extraction problems with 10%-15% of the rounds fired. I literally had to use my knock-out rod to get them free. While I first thought that it was bad sizing on the steel head I found out later what the problem really was - Gross Overpressure. How do I know that? Because of all the new deep etching into the breech face caused by gas blow-by from the primers. The 100 rds fired that day, of which 10%-15% had the extraction problems, did more damage to the breech face than all of the thousands of rounds previously fired in this gun.

I bought this Red Label from a friend who had also shot it a lot and neither of us has had any extraction problems or gas blow-by with any other ammo, including USA made Estate ammo. I don't know whether this over-pressure problem is common to all French made Estate ammo or just this particular lot, but I know I'll never buy it again.
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skeettx
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:41 pm  Reply with quote
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http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13631&highlight=estate

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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
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You should contact Federal. Estate is one of their brands. They will definitely want to know about the kind of problems you experienced. Selling overpressure ammo is something they do not want to do. When you contact them, be sure to have the lot number.
In the meantime, you should not fire any more of the ammo.
From what I've heard, they are good about taking defective ammo back at their expense and replacing it.
But, get on the horn about it.
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oldhunter
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:43 pm  Reply with quote
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Federal does not make the Estate shells from France.

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Zrexxer
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:11 pm  Reply with quote



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oldhunter wrote:
Federal does not make the Estate shells from France.
The Estate box in the picture clearly says "Made in France."

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FlyChamps
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:35 pm  Reply with quote
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oldhunter wrote:
Federal does not make the Estate shells from France.


No they don't, but they market them in the US and that makes them liable for any problems and responsible for dealing with issues.

I've not heard of this issue before and I find lots of empty French made Estates at our club.

If you still have some of the shells you might consider sending several to Tom Armbrust or Precision Reloading and having them pressure tested.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
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Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

geez , wasn't I trying to say the same thing about these cases in another thread . At least reloads you can back off . Factories , good luck .Those cases are gonna have a plastic basewad and the head combo acts like there is no cushion . Fed should NEVER back away from their paper basewads .... For that matter - how many of you reload FEDS . Now that they've changed the cases (at least the Estate brand), unless your chedd data is very similar to the Fed data , the fed data is no longer valid . I don't believe for a second that Fed makes an effort to match load capability . IE win 12/20 HS and old style were purposed to be the same . 28/410's are NOT !

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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:49 am  Reply with quote



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Zrexxer wrote:
oldhunter wrote:
Federal does not make the Estate shells from France.
The Estate box in the picture clearly says "Made in France."

The box also says "Imported by Estate Anoka, MN"
Last I checked, Anoka is also the home of Federal. Estate is owned by Federal. Flychamps makes a good point about the liability issues they face.

Get on the phone with them and report it.

Don't shoot overpressure ammo, unless you have no regard for keeping all your fingers, eyes and related body parts, and don't care about the condition of your gun.

Gawd, I hate winding up having to sound like a scold.
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Gil S
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:19 am  Reply with quote
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Now I know which Estate being referred to in the label. The dearly departed shooter's Estate. Wink
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:32 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
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I guess I just don't comprehend Feds dealing with Estate at all . Originally , the Estates were those red cases in Skeetx photo . They were AWFUL , at least in the 28ga dealings . Supposed to be an inexpensive alternative . Then thank god , they/Fed started loading them in their own cases and were quite nice . Can't say they were inexpensive . This past summer , my buddy Vic told me he was ditching all his Estate 28's . As i gathered them and loaded a few , they were diff than b4 . Still burgundy , but shorter and when looking inside , they were plastic cupped . Still not so bad . Now the old red ones are showing up , and they are DAVE"S #1 BAD . (sorry D-I-M) the other Dave . The old ones broke off at the metal , basewads EASILY came out sometimes following the deprime . The only cases I've ever thrown out . Yesterday at Runnings , they had Fed GL'S for 5.88 a box . The fed and Estate target loads were both 8 something . No bargain for the Estates at all . I'd stick with Fed , at least till Fed switches back to their own cases .

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sneem
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:18 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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Those red hulls are obviously Chedittes. I've had problems with the 12 ga Estates made by Cheddite sold in the white box. Notice the brass is very short. I've had it catch on the opening of the barrel. In my Citori it peels some of the metal back and requires a wooden dowel to get it out.
That being said, I wouldn't go South on 16 ga Estates. The purple ones use the Federal hull and I get great reloads from them. I just think Federal was looking for a cheap promo type of shell and went to Cheddite. Normally that would work, but in this case its become a problem. I would just stay away from the white box Estates. Or atleast check the brass height before buying them.

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FlyChamps
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:42 pm  Reply with quote
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I've never fired any of the French made Estates as factory ammo. I have, however, loaded many thousands of Cheddite hulls in 12 (including French Estates), 16, 20, 24, 28 and .410 without any issue. These have been fired in my wife's and my 15 shotguns of SxS, O/U, pump and semi-auto designs manufactured from 1866 to 2009.

With the exception of 16 gauge, for which the Cheddite hull may be the best available (ouch! - oh for 16 gauge compression formed AA's), I load them only once and toss the hull. In 16 gauge I get 3 - 5 reloads before they get more pinholes in the crimps than I'm willing to accept.

From my experience these hulls are perfectly good but not as long-lived for reloading as Winchester AA/AA-HS or Remington one piece hulls -- neither of which is available in 16 gauge.

If I had a factory load that I believed was over pressure I would stop shooting them, have Tom Armbrust or Precision Reloading test several and if they were overpressure I would then have my attorney take possession of the remaining cartridges and contact Federal. If the test loads were not overpressure I still would stop shooting them but there would be no recourse against Federal.

By the way, I don't use Cheddite primers because they pierce in several of my guns and allow gas back onto the breach face and into the action. This is not a sign of overpressure but of a pierced primer - there is no risk of immediate catastrophic damage to the gun but over time the hot gasses will erode and damage the gun.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:53 am  Reply with quote
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I would not assume anything here. I'd stop using the ammo in question and immediately and tactfully contact Federal ASAP about the problem. Please include the lot numbers on the boxes.

I am positive Federal will appreciate your input, and will respond. They are probably already aware of the problem you are experiencing. I'm betting they will offer to replace the ammo, most likely generously, and will reimburse you for your shipping costs when you send the ammo in. It is in their best interests to do so.

Please let all of us remember one simple thing. We live in a global economy. Generic Cheddite hulls and other molded plastic components are commonly fabricated in China and in other Asian countries to save on labor costs. These various generic components are used by many ammo manufacturers around the globe. The French company who provides the ammo to Federal (actually Alliant) may be having the ammo in question loaded under contract by another company somewhere else.

There is no way any of us here will be able to track exactly where the problem has originated. Laying blame won't solve the problem either. Why bother. Best inform Federal of the problem and let them deal with it. That seems to be the right way to go IMO.

PS,
Nationalism is fine when it comes to reminding us of our central national interests and who is actually protecting them, but it can be misplaced when it comes to doing business in today's world. Americans have always taken an active part in the global economy since our earliest colonial times. We have acquired three long coastlines with many seaports, and our national economy has always greatly benefited from this geological advantage (ask the Russians how big an advantage long coastlines and many seaports can be, and why they've always coveted having one with access to the Mediterranean--like Sebastipol in the Ukraine).

We have always been one of the world's most active trading nations. We have never lived in "splendid isolation". Frankly, it is a political myth fabricated by various self-serving political creatures in order to sell whatever brand of political snake oil they wish to at any given time. Why get sucked into that quagmire of short sighted ignorance. It does not serve our national interests, one of the greatest of which is our thriving economy.
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Winchester21
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:35 am  Reply with quote
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1st Update - I contacted Federal about the Estate ammo that I and my friends have had trouble with. They were not aware of any problems with that particular lot and had no recall on it. But after I expressed my concerns and that I wanted to turn in the 16 boxes of it for a refund, they arranged for UPS to pick it up at their expense and will be sending me a refund check for the value of them.

I hope to post another update once they have tested it but I certainly am satisfied with their customer service.
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rdja
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:42 pm  Reply with quote
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I shot a bunch of those at doves this year, nice fast load and knocked them down. Because of the higher speed I did notice a bit more recoil when I tested them at some clays. But I had no trouble at all shooting them from my 3.5in chambered Beretta Extrema2. No ejection issues. Bought two flats of them.
Could you post the lot number I would like to check it against mine. Since my gun is 3.5 inch it is rated for 14000psi, vs 11500 for most 2 3/4 inch guns. Wonder how high the pressure got?
Nate
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