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Consistant data and shotguns may be an issue. I load 12 rounds of one recipe and patterned them at the distances I shoot, shooting 6 each from my Imp. Cyl and Mod bores. EG: 1 shot each at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 and 45 yards, changing the paper after each shot. If I like what I see, its a keeper, if not back to reloading.

Joined: 28 Aug 2014 Posts: 924 Location: Eastern Tennessee

I seem to be on the same journey you are currently on. I started out with this idea that I should be as scientific as possible about every aspect of the process.

It has taken some reading on here and experience both hunting and reloading to accept the wisdom of others.

I still weigh my shot and powder by hand to exact measurements, however, I have given up on expecting the same performance every shot and that I can eliminate enough variables to make counting my pellets when patterning worth it.

I build a load with use in mind (including weather, distance, and frequency of shots). Once I have read enough to have an idea what I am looking for I will build 15 starter loads.

Example:

I want a pheasant load that can reach out farther. Starter load - 1 1/8 oz #6 Mag lead pushing at 1250 fps.

Next I figure I need to consider the possibility these loads are not shot every 10 seconds and many shots will be late in the season so birds will be moving away. I will be tired and desperate so I will take less than idea shots.

So I will also draft up 2 or 3 starter loads of 15 each to test - 1 1/8 oz #6 Mag lead pushing 1300 and 1200.

Now its time to pattern test.

I figure out what range will most likely be shooting at ideal and less than ideal. I only test for coverage of the desired location at those ranges. Make sure there are not major holes in the shot. I know this does not consider shot string, but hey, I got my limitations! I use a back board of soft wood so that a good amount of penetration should be experienced at any range I shoot at.

I found the 1200 too light in penetration for 'my' use. I came to the conclusion that this would make a good close up option as the pattern was nearly without holes.

Goldie-locks, sorry, got side tracked. The 1300 was great penetration but created too many holes. I decided this was not my load either.

The 1250 version was my comfort level of both penetration and pattern at my idea and less than ideal distance.

Load them up and go! Ah, but here is were the field experience comes into play.

Too many birds wounded. So I decide to listen to my elders here and up my load from #6 to #5 and redo my test. I found the pattern change at the comparable ranges to #6 were extremely minor. However, the penetration difference was noticeable.

That is how I ended up with 1 1/8 of #5 Mag Lead at a fps range of between 1240 - 1300 for pheasant season. I feel pretty good that the more I load and have left over late in the season around 1300, the more ready for turkey season I am.

Charlie16 and 16GaugeGuy have laid it out pretty well, so this is probably just a reiteration of their ideas. I have shot mostly quail with my 16s, so penetration is not as big a factor as it is for some people, so I load a lot of 1 oz #7s loads. No. 7 shot is a compromise between pattern density and energy. We sometimes find pheasants or chickens when were on the prairies, so the 7s can give a little more effectiveness on the occasional larger birds.

Likewise, I have found the 1200 - 1250 fps velocity about the right compromise for pattern density, lethality and recoil. I don't have an opinion as to the affects of pressure on patterns. However, why put extra strain on a gun if it's not needed, plus lower pressure probably makes cases last longer, so I tend to pick loads well below 10K psi.

Unfortunately, with the current powder supply difficulties, I have had to make compromises as far as velocity and pressure.

Although I hate the process I shoot patterns at 40 yds. That is the standard and a means of comparison with other sources. I just don't like the hassle of putting up paper in our Kansas winds and then counting all those holes.

It's probably useful to shoot some paper at the normal/average distance you take birds. I have also shot some 15 - 18 yd patterns, as that is the general range I can still hit a quail effectively. I used that range mostly when I was loading spreader loads for a Sportsman 48 Remington with a tight choke. My CZ Bobwhite needs "tightener" loads, so that's no longer a factor. For me, I find it somewhat difficult to interpret as to what is a good load vs. a bad load with short range patterns. Maybe that's just me.

Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 1358 Location: Twin Cities, MN

Charlie,
I applaud your fortitude and work ethic to find good loads. I don't put that much work into it, but rely on my and others experience. Your big pheasant load is what I shoot in 12 gauge for those birds - 1 1/8 oz of hard 5s at 1250. For me the perfect compromise. All loads are a compromise unless you shoot trap or skeet where you get the same targets all the time. Keep up the exemplary work.
Regards,
Jeff

Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 68 Location: Olympia WA

Well thats It, maybe I just need to shoot some paper and get this over with. I promise I wont get any excitement of blowing away the paper target over and over again an taking picture. Its all your guys fault. But if I must I must load some crazy loads and try them trough a variety of chokes then its your fault. Let see if this makes my priority list this weekend, I sure hope so. A better real life experience sure would set some things straight and help get me on the right road of proven right.

Joined: 22 Jan 2015 Posts: 345

Hmm, I don't want to hi-jack this thread, there's some very insightful replies on the subj; however I wonder if this would be a good time to ask another related question.
Given my inexperience using the 16 and evaluating the 16 ga patterns, can someone offer up some add'l insight into what one should expect as a rule of thumb, from a "good" pattern say for quail in terms of outside spread diameter at typical ranges vs "bad". Maybe the same for larger game like pheastant or duck? I know that generaly, there shouldn't be gaps in the main body of the spread large enough to not cover the target size, and generally a 60% above 40% below the POA for coverage is good for rising game. I do not yet however have a good sense of what a proper 16 ga pattern/spread size might be for a given choke used on upland birds. When I do see pics of shotgun load patterns, I'm often baffeled at the difference btw so called good and bad patterns.
I tested the bbl regulation on my 16 SXS earlier this week. First time shooting it, I used factory low brass loads of #8, 1-OZ shot. With IM/F bbls I was getting 12" spread @16 yrds, 20" spread @25 yrds, 30" spread avg @ 35 yrds. Coverage suitable for dove size game. Does this sound right for a tight choke 16? I still havn't figured out for certain what the fixed choke values are on this gun, but I believe them to be as stated above. Once I get a fresh set of batteries for my guage, I'll take some measurments and find out for sure.

wahoo wrote, "Given my inexperience using the 16 and evaluating the 16 ga patterns, can someone offer up some add'l insight into what one should expect as a rule of thumb, from a "good" pattern say for quail in terms of outside spread diameter at typical ranges vs "bad"."

Please see my first post re evaluating patterns.
After I have shot my selected loads at the distances I chose, I look at the patterns, check for even shot dispersal and determine if the bird could fly through the shot swarm. We don't have quail in WY, but for Grey Partridge (Huns) I use 7/8 oz. or 1 oz. of #7 shot. It's the same for pheasant only the shot sizes changes to 1 oz. of #6 and I still check my pattern board for even shot dispersal to ensure that the bird will not be able to fly through the shot swarm. All loads are distance and choke dependent and that is why I pattern test at the distances that I shoot.
My loads and choke selection are slightly different when hunting over flushing dogs rather than pointing dogs pointing dogs because on average flushing dogs provide longer shots than pointing dogs.
Regarding shot spread via choke:
On a patten board make a mark in the center of the board and shoot from a measured distance of 40 yards.
Draw a 30 inch circle around the largest concentration of shot and count the holes. Depending on the number of pellets in the load, calculate the percentage within the 30" circle and that will correlate to choke. Most reloading books provide the numbers for for full, mod, etc choke percentages. To me this is only significant if I want to verify any given choke, not pattern dispersal at the distances I shoot.
I hope this helps.

Joined: 28 Aug 2014 Posts: 924 Location: Eastern Tennessee

Wahoo sounds like you are already beyond my level, but 1 variable I have chose to eliminate is chokes. I pre-determine what choke I 'should' be using and stick with those options.

Wild Pheasant - mod or light mod
Doves - imp cylinder
Turkey - extra full or turkey
Rabbit - imp cylinder

Public (steel) - skeet or imp cylinder

I've researched but not yet had field experience with quail or grouse. I should have more opinion after my fall trip home to western NC.

You don't live in wayhoo ne do you? I have a meeting there every May that includes a trap shoot.

I think there is some misinformation being given.

Paper patterns are misleading and looking at a pattern is pretty much a waste of time. The reason is that most folks thinks that pellets fly straight, they don't. So what you see at one yardage changes before and after that yardage that the pattern is shot. Trying to look and see what is on a pattern sheet and glean any real solid information is misleading.

Unfortunately you have to draw some circles around the pattern one @ 21" and one @ 30 inches and count pellets. This gives you a good idea of the efficiency of the core of the pattern ( the part that does the work) and the annular ring, which we need to get a decent ratio as this indicates how dense the pattern is and how much farther it may actually be a true killing pattern. I would think that 60% total pellet count in the 30" circle with a core to annular ratio of 1.5 to 1 is about minimum.

Remember this is only one aspect of trying to figure out what makes a killing pattern for YOU. Velocity and recoil also figure into the equation.

As far as pressure goes, you are wasting your time, as pressure has little to no effect on the pattern. Pressure doesn't deform pellets, acceleration does. Obviously the more acceleration for any given payload weight, deforms more pellets. Velocity and pressure don't have as much effect on patterns as folks think, and both are believed to be the work of the devil, which is in fact false. The way to good patterns is to keep all the pellets as round as possible. The pressure figure doesn't matter at all. Pressure is your friend, the closer you keep it to max the better chance you have getting consistent velocities.

Pellet interaction within the shot column after the column leaves the barrel has the greatest effect on individual pellet trajectories than any other factor. Pellet interaction (more collisions) cause more individual pellets to change their trajectories and to diverge from the pattern as the shot column travels down range. The sooner these interactions take place, then the faster the shot column will spread as it travels down range. Furhter, the shorter, more compact shot columns will tend to spread faster than more enlongated ones after they leave the bore (this helps explain how choke constrictions work).

Some of the pellets in a pattern will fly straight, or at least, straighter than the rest. The more spherical, less deformed pellets which have interacted less with the other pellets after the column leaves the bore tend to fly straighter than those which are less spherical and have collided with their neighbors. Those less effected pellets are the ones which tend to remain in the pattern core as it continues to enlongate and travel down range.

A denser pattern core will remain more effective further down range. The same denser pattern core can and will ruin those birds which are centered in it at closer ranges.

I believer we all understand that effective shot shells used for hunting a given game bird must deliver enough pellets down range to cleanly kill the quarry. The pellets must also have enough energy left at a given distance to penetrate and deliver a killing blow. So perhaps the best way to determine pattern effectiveness on a given game bird species is to pattern a number of test rounds at different ranges. Then place life sized bird outlines drawn on clear plastic sheets over different places on the patterns printed on the sheets. On average, about six pellets of sufficient size which hit the bird with sufficient energy in the vitals and in the wing bones will cleanly bring it down and quickly kill it. Of course, the number of hits within the outline will also show if birds might end up being too badly shot up for table fare.

Joined: 22 Jan 2015 Posts: 345

[quote="Charlie16gaYou don't live in wayhoo ne do you? I have a meeting there every May that includes a trap shoot.[/quote]

I'm located in the "down east" part of NC. About an hr inland from the coast.

Thanks again to all for your replies to my questions. I still have a great deal to learn and this promises to be a good place to get to know in route.

Joined: 21 May 2010 Posts: 603 Location: Victoria BC Canada

16gg; This is a very good explanation as to why the "square load" works.

It is the actions of the cloud of pellets that make good patterns, not the gun it was launched from. Everything in shotgunning is a compromise between pattern, portability and pointability. Most of us here on 16ga.com have concluded that the sweet spot for most shotgunning is a 16 gauge gun weighing around 6 to just under 7 pounds. 7/8 to 1 ounce of shot is lethal for most purposes and the guns carry & shoot well. If a bit more shot is required a 16 will also handle that reasonably well.

Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 1358 Location: Twin Cities, MN

This is why so many people don't pattern and work up "ideal" loads. We make it WAY too complicated. If you use the correct wad so everything fits properly, and match the wad design for the shell - taper vs straight, you will be fine. We all obsess about the right choke and shell for a given game bird, but in the field we don't get to shoot everything at ideal ranges and angles. I've read that for all gauges if you choke your gun 0.005/0.015 you'll be set. This tightens up the choke as the gauge and load get smaller, keeping your core density up. I've had several field guns choked like this and with just changes in shot size I killed everything from quail to doves to sharp tails to pheasants to ducks. Shoot big shot for big birds and smaller shot for smaller birds. If you look at lots of patterns, and I have, you will be amazed at how many times there are holes in patterns from shell/barrel/choke combos that you are convinced work great. This can make you crazy if you let it. Keep it simple and don't obsess. Again, shooting ability is oh so much more important than our gear.
Regards,
Jeff

Matching the wad to the shot load and the hull is easy for 12 and 20 gauge loads. It's tougher to do for the rest of the gauges. Admittedly, we 16 gauge fans are considerably better off today than we were a decade ago when it comes to wad selections. Even so, the ideal wad we need to match the hull and shot load is often not available due to available supplies or because of individual wad design.

For the last 20 years, we've had but three 16 gauge hulls--Remingtons, Federals, and the various European style Cheddite types. None are internally tapered, and all are polyformed designs. Remington SP16 wads fit the RGL/Express hulls very well but are a bit too small in diameter for an ideal fit in the rest of the available hulls. SP16 wads are also designed specifically for 1-1/8 ounce loads. We must resort to filler wads for lighter shot loads. The rest of our domestic wads have diameters which are a compromise. They work fairly well in all the available hulls spite of it, but they aren't ideal. They are all designed for one ounce or lighter shot loads as well. The WW16AA Clone wad can often be used for 1-1/8 ounce loads, but it is not ideal for that use.

The available European style wads fit Federal and Cheddite type hulls very well. However, the ones which are most readily available are specifically designed for one ounce loads and have shot cups with less than minimum shot capacity. They work okay for shorter range loads, but they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to shot protection and longer range patterns in my experience. All these European style wads are also too big to easily fit in RGL hulls. Over expanded RGL/Express hulls and hull splits happen all too often when these bigger diameter wads are forced in to seat well enough on the powder charge.

We 16 gauge reloaders have learned to be quite creative and clever, but we often are required to do the necessary load patterning to see what we are actually achieving. 28 gauge and .410 fans are in the same boat, so we 16 gauge folks are not alone.

It is said misery loves company and necessity is the mother of invention. So I guess we in the "alternative gauge boat" are a collection of needy and very clever mothers. Laughing

Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 1358 Location: Twin Cities, MN

28 and .410 are easy to load. Buy factory Win AAs and produce your own empties. For 3/4 oz 28 reloads you can use Winchester, Claybuster HS B , Remington PT28s or Duster wads for great reloads. For the littlest hulls Winchester, Claybuster and Remington wads produce superb 1/2 oz loads. For anything else in .410 just shoot factory. I use Remington wads for both little gauges. Expensive, but they work wonderfully and I feel each and every pellet is important in the little guns. Again, you really don't have to overthink this stuff unless you enjoy minutiae, which is okay.
Regards,
Jeff