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Joined: 28 Jan 2012 Posts: 89

I'm not one to swap out any components in a reload, but the BPI manual says that a nobel sport 209, win 209, or cci 209 can be used in place of the mh 209 primer. I called BPI to verify this and they told me that any of those three primers can be safely used in place of either the cheddite 209 or the m209 primer listed in their reloading data. Input anyone?

Sounds like you had sufficient input already. Gil

Member Joined: 02 Feb 2007 Posts: 371 Location: mpls mn

Make sure you check the the primer pocket size.
The American primers such as the Win 209 and CCI 209 are smaller than say the Noble sport, Rio and Cheddite. Once you use Euro primers in a hull the primer pocket is that hull becomes larger if you try to go back and use the American primer they may be loose
Case and Point
I loaded up a bunch of 12 AA 12 gauge last year with Cheddite primers Those hulls got mixed into another pile of Winchester AA hulls
The next time I loaded 12 gauge Winchester AA 's I was using Winchester 209 primers and found some with the primer missing when they fell into the bucket from my progressive machine. I knew exactly my mistake luckily I only reloaded 50 or so rounds before I noticed. I checked my spent primer trays well as my fired hulls and sure enough found some spent cheddites.
BPI and precision reloading both sell a primer pocket tool to re-size the pocket to an American 209 size

what Ronp said . I have not had the problem with win/chedd , but others are very real . What the lab is telling you is the primers will fit ballistically . It is your job to find out what you/your gun LIKES best . An 1100 probably will like the hottest /higher pressure load of the group . An old double , you may want the lightest/lower pressure load . A pump , probably doesn't care . You may have to snoop around other sources to see what the loads look like against each other . As much as we talk about NOT changing components , some times the MFRS tell you when it's ok !

I am not much for BPI, BUT they are saying "safely", just like Alliant and Hodgdon, tell you when you ask about most primers being substituted for each other.

Safe does not mean equal. There is no way that a CCI 209 is going to perform similarly to a Winchester 209 or a Nobel Sport or most any other primer, unless it is a Remington P209STS.

I've never seen where the manufacturers say it's okay to switch primers.
Myself I really don't believe in it. After spending hours going over the spreadsheets and not just 16 gauge. I have spreadsheets for my own use for 12 and 20 gauge. Sometimes with certain components different primers will show the same results. With other components the Remington primer will show much higher results. other time the win primer will be way higher. I have even seen loads where the win or remington primer matches the results of the Fed 209A primer. It all depends on the components used in the loads. Read Lymans book where they show primer tests.
What is the purpose of looking for a load that gives you the velocity you desire or pressure and then changing primers just because you can?

Most cooler burning standard strength primers share similar (but not exact) ignition characteristics. Yes, some primers are cooler burning than others. And yes, pressures and velocities will be affected to some degree. But most moderate loads will not be affected to the point where an already safe load with midrange pressures will end up being made unsafe if another standard strength primer is substituted.

So as a cost saving measure for practice and fun shooting ammo, I see not real down side. However, this might not be a wise thing to do for any of your loads which are known to perform exceptionally well and are exclusively used for serious competitive shooting or for serious hunting loads. Why mess with a good thing.

However, this somewhat loose rule of thumb does not apply when a magnum strength or known to be extra hot primer is substituted for any of the cooler, standard strength primers. Never a wise thing to do IMO. The loose rule of thumb also does not apply to any load which is known to have already reached average peak pressures considered to be maximum for the gauge in question. It's another bad practice to avoid.

Everything in moderation seems to apply here. Been working for me for a long time.

GG, there are many times when that theory you have is bogus.

A perfect example of that is playing with powders slower than Universal/ Unique.
There can be wide swings in ballistics. I get it, that you can play games with 12 gauge target loads and swap out every component without problems.

Swapping is something best not done, unless you are absolutely positive of the result. Is it dangerous, probably not, is it compromising the performance of the load.....yes in most cases.....sometimes good sometimes not so good.

Hodgdon
Longshot
Rem. 209P
Fed. 12S3
30.3
10,500 PSI
1,420
Hodgdon
Longshot
Win. 209
Fed. 12S3
32.6
8,800 PSI
1,420
Here is one example from Hodgdons. All over they say substitute the Win and Rem primers back and forth. Would you substitute the Rem primer for the win in the lower pressure load? Everything is equal except the powder weight. In the load using the rem primer it took 2 grains of powder less to get the same velocity, but look at the pressure. Then look at the load using the win primer. More powder, but less pressure. Now put the rem primer in that load. All of the tested loads are out there for a reason.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

Some interesting notes in examples of a slow powder and a fast powder loading in 12ga.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

This mos Skeet shooting journal has an article by Tom Roster - short of it is that Win/CCI109&209 are equal and Chedds are now equal to switch . Just throws more mud into the thing as Hodgdon and some others just say use any primer . I agree with DC - target loads not so fussy . Hunting loads - go by trial and error ..... Also in this mag is the AA skeet team for this yr . Proud to say our buddy Craig Parsons made it again . Exactly the same 20/12ga avg - oh by the way , he shoots his 20ga tubes for both .... Wish I had the money to get him a 16ga set for his kolar and a truckload of target ammo to talk him into a try for a year !