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Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 830 Location: Adirondak Mtns

I have had an issue with misfires. Only in one GUN ( FOX) and only with Fio hulls loaded with Fio primers. I probably shouldn't have said that as it may confuse the issue but I only use the Fio primers in Fio hulls. The loaded shell always fires on a second attempt.

Has anyone noticed or have information to support the claim that the Fio primers may be a bit harder than Cheddite of Fed. I.vs never had a misfire with any other combination of hull and primer.

Thanks

Joe

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 425 Location: Maine

Fios, noblesports, and wolf primers are all hard, and more prone to misfire. Never had an issue with cheddites

Check:
1) Gun clean with no deposits of caked oil and/or debris in the firing mechanism
2) Firing pin protrusion
3) Firing pin springs -- unloaded length vs. original if possible. Sometimes old springs stored in cocked locks relax and lose pre-load
4) Depth of primer seating/flatness of shell base
5) Rim thickness of reloaded shells
6) Rim recess depth in chamber

Has anybody seen any real quantified data out there to support the type of sweeping general statements seen in this thread? -- any valid comparisons from controlled tests? Or are we simply drawing conclusions from our experience. My own experience is all I can recount:

I load and shoot all the primers mentioned above. I don't have primer ignition problems with any of those so-called "hard" ones. If I have one primer failure per year, it's notable. I've had more failures to fire with Remingtons and Winchesters, but then I shoot more of them. As a registered skeet shooter who also participates in other shotgun sports as well as hunting, I shoot and reload thousands upon thousands of shells. I've done this for decades. I shoot a good number of guns of all configurations, gauges and ages, oldest of which is 133 years. I do have an occasional puncture with Cheddites in a Model 12 and a Perazzi, however. I can say nothing conclusively about primer hardness.

Maybe it's time for a test. Remember the shot hardness comparative test, where a weight is dropped on shot and deformation is measured? Messing around with hitting loaded primers is not to be lightly contemplated, however. There is a safe way, I think.

Make a little chamber to fit the primer the same as a shotshell primer pocket, with a vent to atmosphere somewhere safe. It could be machined into a block of steel perhaps. Or maybe it could be done by simply using a shotgun barrel fixtured in a proper way, and using an empty shell to hold a new primer. Then either use a static force on a "striker" with a representative "firing pin" shape -- well located and brought down on the primer with force measured with a load cell and monitored on an oscilloscope to detect the force at the moment of ignition, or do a dynamic impact-type drop test. Each has its accuracy and repeatability problems, but could demonstrate trends with enough samples.

Member Joined: 15 Mar 2007 Posts: 601 Location: Virginia

Given that you say the shell always fires on the second attempt, I'd guess that the primer wasn't fully seated.

Dan

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

I'd believe it could be a seating issue, I am having some ftf with Nobelsport 209's in reloads. With one gun it happened only with the right barrel, and they fired when tried in the left bbl. With another gun I had only one ftf in 50 rounds, with a light indentation and that was in the right barrel of that gun. Shot that one in the left barrel as well, but to test I should try any future failures in those right barrels again. Otherwise, these primers work as well as any other in a M12 and A5. These are the last of a brick I picked up some time ago, and when they're gone I'll stick with Win/Rem/Fed as I find more data for those.

Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 830 Location: Adirondak Mtns

[quote="DanLee"]Given that you say the shell always fires on the second attempt, I'd guess that the primer wasn't fully seated.

Dan[/quote]

Maybe, but it seems funny that it is only the right barrel if its seating depth.

Joe

Why would it not fire if it wasn't seated all the way? Wouldn't that actually place it closer to the firing pin?

Bull. No primer is hard enough the striking it with the firing pin is going to seat the primer without piercing it.

Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 830 Location: Adirondak Mtns

Oh! Just occurred to me while thinking about the primer seating. These are new never fired primed hulls.

Just to clarify.
1. Miss firers only with Fio Never with any other brand.
2. Right Barrel only
3. Always fires on a re-try.
4. Primer is very lightly indented (maybe weak spring)
5. Only seems to occur with one particular FOX.

I guess I'm going to have to take it in and have the firing mech. checked. Can anyone suggests a good smith in the NY, NJ, Pa area. I always used Griffin & Howe but had a bad experience that cost me $$ to have repaired on the road. Guns was assembled improperly with the wrong parts. When I wrote to Griffin and complained about the poor work they offered to repair it after I already told them I had to have it fixed elsewhere. It seems their not paying attention to the Gun smithing as they used to.

Old hunter plus 1

Primers are made to work with "all" shotguns.

Primers aren't the problem, the maintenance of your shotgun is.

*Last edited by 16gaDavis on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total*

Joe , older Fox you say . I'd say right barrels in doubles shot 75% of the time , right 25% . Maybe a little loose/headspace - just enough to let the primer hit be questionable . Second hit on the fat . Guys can say what they want about how hard , score here is Broken FP's : Fios 5 , all others 1 , over 50 yrs . Just put a new one in the m12 .

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2346 Location: West MI

I've experienced a difference, but thank goodness no broken firing pins here, understand OH's bull response and agree from a...why wouldn't they all be more or less the same from a baseline design standpoint, but, in chewing through the 4 cases of 24ga Fiocci ammo that came with my gun, that I've thoroughly cleaned and replaced the firing pin springs in, it's not uncommon for at least 1-2 FTF's/box w/factory ammo that go bang on the second hit every time. Most often in the top barrel but both will FTF. When I shoot my reloads with other primer brands through the same gun, no FTF's what so ever. Upon inspecting the factory ammo there are no obvious primer insertion nor primer anvil cup depth issues and the gun has no head space issues...scratching head????

Setting up a simple primer impact force comparison test would be some fun and not that difficult but I have too many other bigger fish to fry at this time.

Not piling on or fueling a pissing match, just sharing my experience with Fio stuff.