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I have been reloading since 1974. I have probably loaded more different types of loads, with a very wide array of primers, hulls and components, then most folks ever get a chance to. I have used and tested new ammo also. I have shot this ammo in pumps, semi-autos, O/U's and a universal test receiver.

ZERO primer failures.

They don't make primers out of inconel or hardened tool steel.

It ain't the primers guys.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

Member Joined: 15 Mar 2007 Posts: 601 Location: Virginia

I'm not sure what guns you are using or how their firing systems are set up, but in the past I've had an intermittent FTF with an 1100. It turned out to be a broken firing pin return spring, meaning the firing pin wasn't always protruding enough from the back of the bolt to get a good hit from the hammer. A new return spring fixed the problem. This might be something to check on your guns.

Dan

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

That's another point; the variety of firing mechanisms in the various shotguns we shoot. Some will hit a primer harder than others, and not all will strike perfectly in line with the center of a primer but then again that may not matter very much.

The firing pins of the two SxS I'm using here are part of their hammers, a M21 and a Fox, and after firing they maintain pressure. Of course, they're also likely rebounding to some degree during recoil. The M12 and M97 hammers also retain mainspring pressure against the firing pin when fired, but the Lefever hammer strikes the pin then rebounds with play/space between the two items as apparently also happens with an 1100 (although with a spring forcibly providing the separation).

Not sure if there is enough pressure within a primer's body when fired to re-shape the firing pin's indentation to any degree, but when I shot a 3200 at Trap the primers' markings always made me wonder how the things ever went off. Very small dimples, and this was with Federal 209A and Remington 209P primers, but I don't think I ever had a misfire with either reloads or factory shells in it.

So, what is a primer seeing throughout the firing process? When it's deformed enough to ignite its compound, does it take on the shape resulting from the impact of the pin and that's the end of it? Does pressure act against the deformed metal and press it back out a bit, or cause it to form around the end a firing pin being held in place by mainspring pressure? It seems at the lower pressures of shotgun shells that wouldn't be the case, but I haven't read any research about it.

In the past, I shot registered and league trap to the tune of about 5 to 10K registered and winter league rounds of ammo per year for over ten years all over New England. I also shot at least 6 times as much trap ammo in practice each year. I also shot a lot of recreational skeet with all five gauges (including 16ga) just for fun during the off season. I also shot my share of sporting clays and 5 stand. I also avidly bird hunted for nearly thirty years. I used both reloads and factory ammo to do all this shooting.

Fire enough rounds of factory ammo or reloads and you will eventually have an FTF due to plain old primer failure. Buy enough 5K bricks of primers and you will get some bad ones. Doesn't matter which brand either. Primers are made by humans, and humans aren't perfect. It happens. Ask a CCI CS rep from about two decades ago if you can find one. Very Happy

I must be one lucky SOB!

My apologies DC, but I'm not going to get sucked into another late winter "I'm so damned bored I could scream" verbal brawl. I believe you when you post that you have never experienced an FTF due to a simple primer failure. Perhaps you are exceptionally lucky in this instance. We should all be so lucky.

I also apologize for not having mentioned one crucial piece of information in my first response to the original post. Several of my former trap club members of that time also experienced the same difficulties with the same obviously defective lot of CCI 209 primers during the same time period. We often bought our reloading supplies in bulk at the very best available discount prices from the same source at the same time in June at the Mass State Trap Shoot in Billerica, MA. At that time, CCI 209 primers commonly sold for about the lowest bulk price of any available domestic brand 209 primer. So some of us used a lot of them for registered, league, and practice ammo and had formally had a lot of trust in the CCI brand name.

We actually disassembled some of the defective and/or spent CCI 209 primers to see what was happening. We found that the metal base and walls of the primer cups (the small inner cups which contain the primer pellet and which receive the firing pin strikes) were significantly thicker than those of any other brand in comparison. This included some primer cups from older spent CCI 109, 209, and 209M primers we had obtained.

I already had a firm idea what had gone wrong with this particular lot of CCI primers before I contacted Blount about the problem. It was a manufacturing plant QC failure pure and simple. I was very much surprised and disappointed that they chose not to respond to my inquiry and the evidence I provided, but that was how it went.

Crap happens. Live and learn. Peace out.

GG,

Wasn't looking for an argument or an explanation.

Just a simple statement, that I feel very fortunate.

. . . .

GG and I go way back......we are both very well aware of our tendency to argue with each other.......right now we are on our best behavior........not speaking for GG but I don't intend to argue ever again on 16ga.com.

It's all cool..... Cool

DC and I are in perfect agreement here. Why bother. There is nothing to win and nobody ever wins it. Very Happy