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<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Can Magtech bass shells be loaded with smokeless?
Baden Powell
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:02 pm  Reply with quote
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It just occurred to me that I have always only loaded the Magtech shells with black powder. Are there safe smokeless load recipes for these hulls?
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jschultz
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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Mag Tech hulls use large pistol primers and I don't know of any successes with smokeless powder. Double Hammer, a now defunct company modified Mag Tech hulls by drilling out the primer pocket to accept 209 primers and adding an inner base wad. After several reloads, I had 2 inner base wads break up and I dumped my Double Hammer brass.
Some of our members have attempted the same mods, but I don't remember reading about their success or failures.
The only all brass hulls that I know that are being manufactured today are from Rocky Mountain Cartridge. RMC hulls will accept both BP and smokeless powder, use either 1-piece plastic wads or card and fiber wads. I load RMC brass hulls in 28, 20, 16 and 12 gauges.
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skeettx
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:13 pm  Reply with quote
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http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13302

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Carlos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:41 pm  Reply with quote



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There was a reason why the 209 type primer was developed. Smokeless is more difficult to ignite compared to gunpowder. It will fire but probably not as efficiently as you would hope.
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jschultz
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:31 am  Reply with quote



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skeet's link mentions SR4756 powder, a powder that I use for my hunting loads, unfortunately, SR4756 has been discontinued. Sad
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sharps4590
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:22 am  Reply with quote



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js, you have a PM.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:38 am  Reply with quote
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The answer is "hell yes" you can successfully ignite smokeless powders in shotshells using large pistol primers. Years ago (2007) I bought a box of MagTech Brass and a box of Hammer Double brand brass, both in 16 gauge. I loaded them the same and shot them for comparison in a Model 12 -- more on that below. I made tools to adapt a MEC 600 to de-prime and re-prime and resize the MagTech brass with large pistol primers. The Hammer Double cases are (were ... sorry to say they went out of business) simply MagTechs bored out to use a 209, and with a plastic basewad pressed inside to space up to the level of the 209 primer. This spacer is suspiciously similar to the basewad of a Cheddite plastic Rieffenhauser hull. You could actually get these spacers from Ballistic Products at one time! I wonder who was buying them? I still worry a little about this spacer coming out.

I will digress for the moment to say I have had the basewad of re-loaded 12 gauge Cheddites come loose and move out slightly -- maybe 1/8 to 3/16 inch -- never even close to "all the way", but alarming nonetheless. You notice this when you press in a new primer as the basewad suddenly and audibly snaps back into place -- Crack!. Also, during re-loading, you will suddenly encounter a hull with a definite reduction in capacity. Surprise! -- you now know you have not re-seated the basewad. I have never noticed this with my Hammer Double brass, but I am ever watchful. I have not shot them very much -- I back-burnered the project. So this is a bit of a warning for you fellows shooting repeaters where you can't take a look down the barrel before reloading the gun.

Now back to the comparison, large pistol primer ignition vs. Winchester 209: My re-loading log shows I loaded two different 1 ounce loads, one with Herco and one with Red Dot, powders with two vastly different burn rates. I did this to see if I could produce a noticeable difference in ignition. I extrapolated from loads for Reiffenhauser-style hulls. First load used 21 gr. of Herco, and the second load used 19 gr. of Red Dot. Both loads used 14 gauge wads under the shot -- a .125 nitro card followed by two .400 fibre filler wads plus another .125 nitro card above those for a firm base under the shot. These hulls have oodles of case capacity and thin walls, so 14 gauge wads are required. Above the shot I used a 13 gauge .030 over shot card ("B" wad). All these wad sizes are recommendations from Hammer Double Co. The over shot cards were sealed in with Elmer's White Glue, per Hammer Double recommendations, and left to dry completely. This produces a really nice shell that takes handling very well.

I shot these shells at skeet, in comparison with each other and with other, more normal 65mm 1 ounce reloads. Unfortunately, I have no real quantitative data. However, I had 4 observers coached to observe differences in sight and sound, who were blind to whatever shell I had in the gun. My notes show my observations that both loads were consistent and soft feeling, and it was impossible for me to detect any differences between the brass primed with Winchester large pistol primers and the Winchester 209, nor was it possible for me to feel much difference between the Herco and Red Dot loads. All these brass loads felt a little softer than my regular one ounce loads (Universal, Unique, Green Dot, 7625). The observers could not tell the difference in sound. I broke all the targets, which is not a good measure of anything, really.

Anyway, to answer your question, the Winchester Large Pistol Primer does just fine in brass hulls igniting smokeless powders. Because the hulls are so capacious, and my loads were only one ounce, I doubt whether pressures were very high -- but that's only an opinion -- I have no facts to support this opinion. I certainly would not recommend using Herco or anything slower than Unique for such a load. I wish I had at least chronographed these, but I was in a hurry and I think I did not have a chronograph at that time. Eventually I will get back to this project after I strain-gage a barrel, and I can get some real data on internal and external ballistics of these loads and others.
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DanLee
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:16 pm  Reply with quote
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Very interesting. I haven't had your luck with the Magtech shells and smokeless. I used CCI pistol primers and Red Dot, and just about all my shots felt like bloopers. I'm wondering if going to a large rifle primer wouldn't help.

Dan
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:23 pm  Reply with quote
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DanLee -- It's important that the wads fit the case. If you are using regular 16 gauge wads or 16 gauge plastic wad columns, you won't have very good performing loads with those thin MagTech brass cases. Get some 14 gauge nitro cards and fibre filler wads from Circle Fly or one of their retailers, and make sure the over-shot wad fits well too (13 gauge). The cool thing about Circle Fly is that you can get all these sizes. http://www.circlefly.com/html/wad_sizing_chart.html Note that Circle Fly 14 gauge wads are .703" diameter!! Note they specify them for MagTech 16 gauge hulls.

I was a little concerned these big wads would have a lot of resistance being shoved down a normal 16 gauge bore. That doesn't appear to be the case. I tried shoving them down the bore with a rod of fairly big diameter, not a cleaning rod that would just bell the wad and deform it, but a wood dowel of about 9/16 inch diameter that would put pressure across most of the wad diameter. The wads go down the barrel without an alarming amount of force. I do not doubt regular 16 gauge plastic wads will seal in the bore of anything up to almost 12 gauge, but that isn't the problem. I'm betting the problem is on initial firing, as the pressure builds up -- the leakage starts in the hull, and the burn is weak.

If you are loading according to data for straight-walled plastic hulls (Reiffenhauser type), you will need more powder to get the same performance. The MagTech brass cases have more inside diameter and a very flat shape to the inside of the base, and that makes for relatively inefficient burning. The opposite end of the scale for comparison is the WW compression formed hull with its thick walls that really hold onto the wad, and the nearly parabolic "combustion chamber" -- very efficient powder burners. In my opinion, WW compression formed hulls seem to make powders behave like faster burning powders. Red Dot has a fast enough burn rate for this brass hull application, so you're OK there.

Frankly, I don't know what the difference is in large rifle vs. large pistol primers. I always heard the pistol primers were hotter and softer than the rifle primers. This is just hearsay -- I have no facts to back this statement. My dad would load .30-06 shells with 90 grain cast lead round-nose bullets using a few grains of Bullseye -- very few -- and a large pistol primer. That was a very effective and accurate load for gophers. For best results, you had to tip the gun up to move the powder to the primer end of the shell before firing. The hot primer (pistol primer) was supposed to more reliably ignite the small powder charge.

By the way, the first shells I ever reloaded were .30-06 when I was about 6. A first grade classmate gave me an old Lyman bullet mold he had found, and I melted down all my Crayola Crayons and made wax bullets with it. On the advice and encouragement of my dad, I stuck those in .30-06 cases using no powder and only a large pistol primer. I shot them in the basement at a target on a cardboard box filled with crumpled newspaper -- I could recycle the wax! Cheap entertainment in the late '50's for a kid in wintertime North Dakota, without a TV (or a phone for that matter!). More fun, more accurate, and only slightly more noise than my Daisy Model 25 BB gun. But I digress, sorry.
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RobO
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:53 am  Reply with quote



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I'm far from an expert, but I thought that brass hulls were developed to replace paper hulls in trench guns, because the paper hulls swelled up when exposed to damp/humid conditions which led to feed/extraction problems, never good, but really bad in combat situations. My point is, this was well into the smokeless powder era, so why would brass hulls not be suitable for smokeless powders? Just wondering.

Rob
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jschultz
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:42 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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I don't know about the history of brass shells. Mag Tech makes extruded brass shells that have larger than standard interior dimensions requiring gauge appropriate oversized wads. Mag Tech specifically states that their hulls are for BP only.
Rocky Mountain cartridge makes lathe turned brass hulls that are dimensionally true to modern hulls and can be loaded with BP or smokeless powder using either card and fiber or 1-piece plastic wads.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:52 am  Reply with quote
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jschultz says:
Quote:
Mag Tech specifically states that their hulls are for BP only.


I can't figure out how you arrived at this notion, jschultz. Go to the MagTech site. I have pored over this site and cannot find any such statement. Read it and tell me if you can: http://www.magtechammunition.com/products/view-product?id=200

I've pulled out the boxes in which MagTech packages their brass shotshell hulls, and there is no such statement on the boxes I have -- if you have any MagTech boxes, what do yours say, jschultz?

In the Ballistic Products site, where they sell MagTech brass, Ballistic Products says they are "ideal for traditional black powder loads". There is no statement of restriction specifically to black powder, as you have attributed to MagTech, jschultz.

People have been loading brass shotshell hulls with smokeless for a long time -- old news, jschultz.
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jschultz
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:45 am  Reply with quote



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MS, you may be right.
9 years ago when I first became interested in all brass hulls, the source that I was looking at had two choices available, Magtech and Double Hammer. The source and I don't remember which one, specified Magtech for black powder only. I bought Double hammer hulls because of that info. I have a call into Magtech and when they respond I will ask them and if okay for smokeless and if so I will request available loading data.
A short time after I began loading Double Hammer brass the inner base wads on two hulls began to disintegrate and I no longer used them. Instead, I bought RMC hulls in 16 GA and because they worked so well, I bought additional 16 GA hulls in addition to 28, 20 and 12 gauge hulls. Expensive hulls, but any gauge specific published recipe will work and they will last a hunter a lifetime. Cowboy Action Shooters have loaded RMC hulls over 30k times. I have never had better patterns than those obtained from RMC hulls.
I just emailed Tom Armbrust as Follows:
I have always been under the impression that the subject brass hulls were for use with black powder only and as a result, I bought Double Hammer brass hulls. A few years ago you gave me via telephone several 16 GA recipes for Double Hammer brass hulls, recipes that I now use in RMC brass hulls.
Do you now if Magtech brass is suitable for smokeless powder and if so can you provide 16 GA recipes to be published on the 16 GA forum.
Thanks Tom,
Jim Schultz
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DanLee
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:13 pm  Reply with quote
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MaximumSmoke wrote:
DanLee -- It's important that the wads fit the case.


I do use the larger diameter wads as you suggest. When I load these brass hulls with black powder, the large pistol primer works well and I get the performance expected. However, smokeless powders don't seem to ignite as well and the performance is very bloopy.

Dan
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Carlos
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:11 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 May 2010
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RobO wrote:
I'm far from an expert, but I thought that brass hulls were developed to replace paper hulls in trench guns, because the paper hulls swelled up when exposed to damp/humid conditions which led to feed/extraction problems, never good, but really bad in combat situations. My point is, this was well into the smokeless powder era, so why would brass hulls not be suitable for smokeless powders? Just wondering.

Rob


Yes and no. Paper cartridges go way back, but metallic shotgun hulls were a commercial item back in the '70s (1870s!). Generic BP cartridge primers were used, until smokeless became a fad. It was then noted that the new powders were harder to ignite; - thus the 209 was born.

Here is a long post on shotgun ammo development timeline that I wrote for cascity.com;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,53425.0.html
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