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Charlie16ga
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Aug 2014
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Location: Eastern Tennessee

Making up some steel dove loads and needing to add osc's to get good crimps. I know you old timers like your roll crimps so if osc's are evil and you use them for roll crimping are those loads evil, and consequentially those that use them?

Are osc's pattern busters?

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skeettx
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:15 pm  Reply with quote
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No, they are not pattern busters
and you can prove this by patterning.

But the way you were reloading, why not put a smaller OSC or Cheerio or something in the bottom of the wad BEFORE the shot goes in??

Mike

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Charlie16ga
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Aug 2014
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Location: Eastern Tennessee

Mike,

I don't mind patterning but I can see that I am only going to get limited chance to do so before sept 1.

The load currently gets a 20 ga felt 1/8" wad in the vp80 wad. Testing shot column shows 2 20fw18 will not fit and leave the shot inside the vp80 (steel shot). I just was wondering how to balance roll crimping against the arguement I hear about their pattern busting impact. If it was true I wondered why anyone would still roll crimp.

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16' Brown A5
15' Brown White Light Citori
13' Brown Upland Spcl BPS
02' Rem 870 Exp
53' Rem 870 Wing
53' Mar 90 DT
50' Mar 90 DT
47' Rem 31L
46' Win 12 (2)
33' Rem 31
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Floppintom
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:42 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2013
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http://www.gobblernation.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2377&mode=view

Charlie
I load TSS in the VP80 for turkey where its all about the the pattern. Roll crimp loads for me shoot better than fold crimps. I would say osc are not pattern busters.
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mike campbell
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:49 pm  Reply with quote
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:18 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Tom Roster insisted that they disrupt patterns. Not sure by how much. He patterned more loads than all of us combined and whenever I have tested his claims, they have been quite accurate. I have never tested this one since I have yet to need the cards.
Even if cards don't hurt, it is still one more thing to add and slow down the process. I have about 20 years loading experience with steel and it is fussy business since there is no collapsible cushion section in the wad. I have found it is possible to get excellent crimps though.
One of two things will help (possibly both in your instance). Setting the crimp starter to close the hull as much as possible (without crinkling of course) makes a huge difference. The other thing is to use a compressible spacer wad (like felt) under the shot with loads that don't completely fill the shot cup. Since steel doesn't deform from ignition setback, I typically use heavy loads that fill the cup since the extra shot tends to remain in the pattern.
Also setting the crimp die to taper the end of the shell helps ensure that there is no opening for small size shot to leak through.

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jschultz
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:59 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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Location: northwewst Wyoming

Since 2006 I've been using overshot cards to seal my brass hulls and the patterns are the best that I've ever experienced. Very Happy
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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:03 am  Reply with quote
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Use osc on all my loads since 2000

Regards. Nick
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
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Location: Maine

WyoChukar wrote:
...
Even if cards don't hurt, it is still one more thing to add and slow down the process. ...


For an outfit like Remington, that "one more thing to add and slow down the process" added up to a lot of money, and a bit of surely-complicated machinery. Both, they got rid of going to folded crimps. Money saved is as good a reason for them to move from rolled crimps and OSC, and blown patterns a good advertiser's reason.

I'm not doubting the OSC might have AN effect on the pattern, but I'm compelled to wonder just how much of one.
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mike campbell
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:59 pm  Reply with quote
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Hootch
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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I use OSC on all my 10,12,16,24 and 28ga loads. Have patterned many in all of those to get to a load that I liked. Never encountered osc doing anything detrimental. I have never used a plastic disc, just the thin cardboard osc BPI sells.
Have not patterned much steel though. Can't see diff though.

Tom Roster is far from scripture. Although if you listen to him he pretty much thinks he is Deity.
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putz463
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:08 am  Reply with quote
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I'm of a similar mind set and experience as Hootch right down to the same gauges (except 28 ) and using thin card stock OSC's has never been an issue for me. I also share DiM's cynicism regarding marketing dept's to make anything sound/spin either grandiose or devilish.

Need to ask Mike Campbell, & BTW,thanks for posting those pattern pictures... is the plastic disk you're referring to in your pictured pattern's a Polywad insert? I'm of the mind that the post under their disk/insert plays a large roll in "blowing" or widening a pattern. My theory; upon setback and while traveling through the forcing cone and choke the pellets surrounding the post compress it and when the shot leaves the choke/muzzle that compression is released and those pellets get "flug" out and away from the post, as this ring of pellets is shoved away it creates a void in the shot string and the insert progressively moves back through the string further dispersing the shot. AGAIN, just my thoughts on how heir insert does it job, which it does very well. In all the roll crimped shells I've made comparing those patterns with thin OCS cards and PW inserts, all things else being equal, the insert will "blow" a pattern 2-3 choke constrictions wider than the thin OSC w/no post.

I would never call OSC's evil, I think they do the job very well. And using a bit of perspective...how many thousands of shotgun shells were made w/roll crimps & OSC's before folds and how many clay pigeons broke and game dropped with them.

Simply sharing my experience and thoughts....good thread.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:17 am  Reply with quote
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Just to clear the air a bit on the subject, I think we are talking about over shot cards under a fold or pie crimp, and NOT the over shot card (the 0.020" thick paper "B" wad) in a roll crimp, right? I wouldn't automatically expect the same pattern performance.

I also would not expect the same pattern performance for over shot cards of different type or material. Mike Campbell's patterns are real data, and very interesting. Thanks. Mike, could you describe the flat plastic disc you used -- diameter, thickness, material. I wonder if it worked about the same as the tough plastic Spred-R devices? Did it more-or-less give a consistently open/degraded pattern, shot-to-shot? How did it work with more open chokes?

I absolutely don't understand why anyone would use an overshot card under a fold/pie crimp, or anything like it (Spred-R) unless the intent is to open the pattern. Is the loader trying to compensate for a poor crimp that leaks shot? If so, adjust your tool to correctly close the crimp. Is the loader trying to address a fit issue? If so, put card filler under the shot, not over it. Ever consider what the underside of a fold/pie crimp looks like -- the volume and shape it consumes? Cut the top off a factory load sometime and have a look. A firm-to-hard card, no matter how thin, prevents the folds of the crimp from penetrating into the shot, and takes up a lot of room. Yes, I know Ballistic Products Inc. recommends overshot cards as a crimp "improvement", but they would develop a use and recommendation for any component they sell. The only thing I ever use under a fold crimp is a very thin piece of Tyvek (completely flexible, and conforms to the underside of the crimp -- takes almost zero space) to help retain buffer (another BPI recommendation -- and it works), but I will probably go back to using a drop or two of wax in the future.
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mike campbell
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:46 am  Reply with quote
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putz463
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:34 am  Reply with quote
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Whoops, forgot to also point out my appreciation to the guy that had (I think it you Mr Campbell) the stroke of genius in adding a small amount of shot above the PW insert to fill in any holes in the pattern produced by their inserts. They really do what they are touted as and allow tightly choked guns to be more useful w/o messing with the OEM chokes, like a very tightly choked 24ga O/U that I can't get tubes for.

Regarding the OP, still haven't seen any evidence in my shooting/hunting/patterning that would steer me away from using OSC's.

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