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Joined: 28 Aug 2014 Posts: 924 Location: Eastern Tennessee

Just had to share with someone my luck today. Was 30 miles from home today and had nothing to do while waiting so I hit lgs.

Sitting on his shelf was 5,000 unopened case of fed 209 red box primers. I figured if I ever got lucky I'd find a few 100 at a gun show some day. Local got out of reloading and sold entire setup to lgs.

They have a new home.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Hope you got them at a bargain price. lgs=?

Joined: 09 Aug 2015 Posts: 30 Location: CT

LGS= local gun shop, I believe.

Joined: 28 Aug 2014 Posts: 924 Location: Eastern Tennessee

Not as cheap as I wanted, but got him down to $175 out the door. Was not completely sure what kind of load data I had for them. All my confirmed data is primarily from Hercules, I also have some unconfirmed data from reloading for shotgunners. The difference is I have personally confirmed the accuracy of the data.

I'd be happy to hear some data not associated with the yahoo group or LPG lists (already have those).

Seems my lack of r-16 wads limits use slightly.

Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 1358 Location: Twin Cities, MN

Charlie,
Just curious as to why you are excited about old primers that were more expensive than new Fed 209A or Win209s? I know someone with a bunch of these and I have been told they weren't that great and that's why the 209A was developed. If I am missing something please enlighten me.
Thanks,
Jeff

Joined: 28 Aug 2014 Posts: 924 Location: Eastern Tennessee

Jeff,

I'm just a component whore. Must come from starting my reloading during very dry times.

It's a sickness!

Well done
What fun,
Interesting to have the old primers, to load in the old paper hulls with
THAT SMELL Shocked

Mike

Joined: 19 Apr 2014 Posts: 429 Location: Maine

Ditto on the smell. Had a bunch of old paper #4s I used up on crows and beside that great stink and smoke I convinced myself they were dropping birds at phenomenal ranges.

Joined: 15 Jun 2010 Posts: 1358 Location: Twin Cities, MN

As long as you're happy that's all that matters.
Regards,
Jeff

I found two 5000 count cases of the original discontinued Federal 209 primers (w/o the A) at Kittery Trading Post back in the early '90s for a very inexpensive price. I used them for 12 and 20 gauge trap and skeet practice loads for a couple of seasons. Never had any problems w/ them.

Based on my experience, I've found the original Federal 209 primer to be a very dependable, fairly cool burning, mild primer. It is very close in performance to the Remington 209P and the original CCI 109 and 209 primers. It is best suited for use w/ faster burning flake powders like Red Dot, Green Dot, Clays, Int. Clays, 700X. etc. I believe the discontinued Federal 209 primer would be excellent for use in light 16 gauge loads calling for Green Dot, Int. Clays, etc.

I would avoid using the discontinued Federal 209 primer for any loads calling for slow burning powders normally used for heavy field and magnum loads or for any ball powders. They are just not hot enough to reliably ignite these harder to light powders under all conditions. Federal developed the much hotter 209A primer for use with any type of powder under any conditions. They will certainly do that, but are unnecessarily hot for use in mild loads calling for faster burning flake powders.

Joined: 28 Aug 2014 Posts: 924 Location: Eastern Tennessee

16GG,

Thank you for that information.

I also understand that some primers may cause a spike in pressure when used with certain hulls.

Some testing I've read suggests that for instance Rio 209 primers, in straight hulls acts more like Win 209, however, in tapered hulls they act more like Fed209A. Never tested it myself and the 16 gauge load data for rio primers seems limited to rio hulls so little to do a good comparison.

Frankly, I would not accept this bit of "reloading folk lore" based on my own extensive experience w/ the Remington 209P/ 209 STS primers. These two primers are basically the same in all but name.

I do know that back in the mid-1990's, there was a short term issue regarding the flash hole seals in some of the 209P primer production. I believe some of the seals were missing or damaged on some of the primers. Since I always inspect the tops of all my primers when traying them up in the primer feed for use and removing any culls, I've never had an issues in this regard. Yes, it happens every so often to one or two primers per 1000 or so during production for any brand, so it's always wise to look first before dropping them down the primer feed tube IMO. We can always put a dab of clear nail polish on the culls and use them later in fun loads if the problem haunts us. Frankly, I've used them as is for fun and practice loads and have never had any resulting problems.

I've been loading the 209P/STS primers exclusively in my Remington 12 ga Premier/STS hull based registered trap loads for over two decades. These various 7/8 oz. to 1-1/8 oz. registered trap loads of mine have been based on Red Dot, Green Dot, and 700X powders, and have been used only for serious competition. My serious trap loads must be absolutely uniform and reliable for obvious reasons.

I've also used the Remington 209P/STS primers over the same time period for at a bunch of practice and recreational trap and skeet loads in WW12AA, WW20AA, and WW28AA compression formed hulls. All have ben loaded with easy to ignite flake powders as well.

Both hulls are one piece, internally tapered hulls. I've never experienced any pressure spikes or unexpected results in any way when using properly metered charges of easy to ignite double and single base flake powders in properly crimped loads.

I've never used ball powders for any of my loads mentioned above, so I've no experience here. However, I'd have to call for the BS flag on this one based on what I do know. I suspect somebody did something wrong regarding proper reloading procedures, got some questionable results, and pushed the panic button. Just sayin'.

Member Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 61 Location: Salina, KS

The Federal 209 (not 209A) was the hottest primer of its era with the Fiocchi 616 and Alcan being reasonably comparable.

I have to disagree with you on this one pheasantmaste based on my experience w/ the obsolete Federal 209 primer. Occasionally, almost any standard strength (non-magnum) 209 primer might act as if it were slightly hotter or cooler than other primers in different loads under different conditions and from differing factors.

Older out of print published reloading data I have on hand from the 1970's to the early 1990's shows this to be true for the obsolete Federal 209 primer. According to the published data I still have on hand, the Federal 209 acted as a cooler primer than the WW209 and CCI 209 primers in the loads I was using based on the listed average peak pressures produced. Test results were closely similar to those produced using Remington 209 primers.

I do not know if the listed differences in average peak pressures in the published data was due to acceptable tolerances within individual production lots of the primers and powders used in the test loads or from other factors. The listed data also appears to have been continued reprints of previously published test rsults. It does not appear as if the loads were retested over that span of time, but I can't confirm this.

Pheasant master is correct. Federal 209 primers were fairly hot and the old data pretty well bears that out.

With the faster powders the 209 performs very close if not exactly the same as the 209A.

With the slower powders and heavier loads the 209 performs very closely to the CCI209M and within 2-3 grains of the 209A.

It was a stout primer, it difinitely did not act like any Remington 209.

Where people get the idea that Federal primers may not be as hot, is with some target loads that might exhibit lower pressures than other primers. That is actually a function of the primer being forceful enough to collapse the wad and bump the crimp a bit, which enlarges the combustion area and drops the pressure. You will see that with hot primers.

The measure of a primer is with slower burning powders and heavy payloads of shot.