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| < 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ Copper Shot |
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 Posted:
Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:00 pm
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Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 1863
Location: Wisconsin
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| I told a student of mine that my only experience with copper is in the plating of lead shot, but he thinks that solid copper shot is made and reloaded. I'm lazy today, can someone tell me what is available because once again I'm at a loss to discuss. Reno |
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If you speak ill of farmers, don't do it with your mouth full. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:29 pm
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Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9464
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:34 pm
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were
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| I believe there are(was?) some European offerings of copper shot.....I expect it makes folks feel better in using it. |
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Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:41 pm
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Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida
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| You wouldn't like copper. It is fairly costly alongside of alternatives. Biggest problem is density. Hard lead shot (with antimony) is about 11 grams/cc. Bismuth is OK at a theoretical density of 89% of hard lead, but comes across as about 85% in reality. Copper is only 81% the density of hard lead shot in theory, but will be less than that. It is right between Bismuth and Steel, which is about 72% the density of hard lead shot. It was one of the first proposed non-toxic alternatives, but it is pretty costly and hard to work with. Copper would perform very little better than iron (steel) shot, but at a very much higher cost. Tungsten, costly as it is, is the performer, being 155% as dense as lead, elementally, and with some alloying and tailoring, can be made into shot of various densities as high as lead shot to 50% higher. |
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Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:38 am
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Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 356
Location: Ponchatoula, Louisiana
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| MaximumSmoke wrote: |
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You wouldn't like copper. It is fairly costly alongside of alternatives. Biggest problem is density. Hard lead shot (with antimony) is about 11 grams/cc. Bismuth is OK at a theoretical density of 89% of hard lead, but comes across as about 85% in reality. Copper is only 81% the density of hard lead shot in theory, but will be less than that. It is right between Bismuth and Steel, which is about 72% the density of hard lead shot. It was one of the first proposed non-toxic alternatives, but it is pretty costly and hard to work with. Copper would perform very little better than iron (steel) shot, but at a very much higher cost. Tungsten, costly as it is, is the performer, being 155% as dense as lead, elementally, and with some alloying and tailoring, can be made into shot of various densities as high as lead shot to 50% higher.
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This was simply put and well said. I always wondered about this. Thanks, Chuck |
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The reason I am awed by shotgun shooters is that most of them don’t know how in the hell they do what they do.
Charles F. Waterman, |
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:37 pm
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Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 1863
Location: Wisconsin
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| Thanks folks, I appreciate the input. Reno |
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If you speak ill of farmers, don't do it with your mouth full. |
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Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:02 pm
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were
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I saw one note where Rottweil advertised their copper shot as offering lower chances of ricochets.
Interesting tack.
Probably worth the cartage just to see and for a hoot.
Lot of money gets spent on worse reasons and dumber choices afield. |
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:30 pm
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Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1973
Location: Maine
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| MaximumSmoke wrote: |
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You wouldn't like copper. ... It was one of the first proposed non-toxic alternatives, but it is pretty costly and hard to work with. ....
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That, and it didn't work. When non-toxic was first proposed, Winchester tested it for toxicity on ducks at its facility out in Illinois, back in the '60s. They died way, way faster than the ducks bobbing for lead shot.
In other words, it was MORE toxic than lead. |
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Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:52 pm
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 20
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There are actually several companies in Europe now offering shotshells loaded with either pure copper shot or pure copper shot mixed with other non-tox shot in 'dual' type loads. I wrote about them recently here and include some links to the products and even a couple of video featuring Baschieri&Pellagri's Dual Shock cartridges which are a mix of pure copper shot and zinc plated pure copper shot.
http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2015/05/pure-copper-shot.html
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Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:58 am
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Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2067
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)
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| so , DIM ... isn't that funny that copper plated steel is OK !!?? FWLS is just plain politically nuts as far as I'm ever concerned ! |
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Molly sez AArrrooooooah ! |
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:02 am
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Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 924
Location: Eastern Tennessee
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So based on chien's information:
Copper would be safe for all guns.
Copper would require extra fps to improve effectiveness (being it is lighter like steel).
Copper would be cheaper (based on the time of comparison) then all, but steel and lead (say $.80 or so a reloaded shot).
I wonder if there would be shattering concerns (like bismuth) or pattern issues (due to speed and other factors).
I could just see people stealing your ammo to take the copper shot out of it!
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16' Brown A5
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46' Win 12 (2)
33' Rem 31 |
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:19 am
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 20
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An article with test results of 8 different pure copper loads appeared in a French magazine called "Armes de Chasse" (Hunting Guns) recently. I finally had a chance to read it today and have posted a brief overview of the basic pressure, velocity and pattern results in an updated version of my blog post.
You can read it here (update is at the bottom of the post): http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2015/05/pure-copper-shot.html |
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:16 pm
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Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 603
Location: Victoria BC Canada
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| I have a sample pack of NICE shot. Expense is still an issue. If any shot, perhaps copper, can be marketed cheaper, I'm sure there it will be a hit. (Pun by default) |
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:32 pm
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Joined: 28 Jul 2012
Posts: 30
Location: WMass
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Chiendog- Excellent blog! Just started to read some of your articles and look at the photography, but will spend quite some time there in the future. thanks
Casey |
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:40 pm
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 20
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Here is a link to where you can purchase pure copper shot for reloading.
http://www.siarm.com/index.php?cPath=2_191&osCsid=a3b67004389f4f502178e7e510e3fb5a
I'm in Canada and our dollar is currently in the dumps, so the price is quite high, but for you folks stateside with the strong greenback, it's not quite as pricey... about 11 bucks a pound (60 bucks for a 2.5kg bag), $0.68/ounce which is less than half the price of bismuth shot (last time I checked a 6.6 pound jug of bismuth ran about $175).
Anyway, I have no idea what shipping costs would be, or if the company even ships to the US. And then there is the question of copper being approved as a 'non-tox' load here. Clearly it is in Europe, the copper loads are marketed specifically for shooting in wetlands, but over here? I have no idea.
EDIT: here is a link to the data sheet for the #6 pure copper shot sold on the site: http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_191&products_id=2320&osCsid=a3b67004389f4f502178e7e510e3fb5a |
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