16ga.com ~ View topic

Today, in my part of the world the weather ( a cold wind) is keeping me close to the fire and in a state of anxiety, as my roof may go at any time. So, please forgive this tirade. And .. in my defense it has been a little slow. Wink

I have had a long and sometimes heated discussions with noted shotgun expert Cliff Claven. Many of you are familiar with Cliffs often unusual points of view.
Cliff’s arguments often parallel those of another noted outdoor writer found on a popular shotgun forum.
In our latest discussion Cliff was maligning my favorite gauge. Yes, the 16 Ga. in all actions and especially SxS’s configured with 2 triggers, straight stocks and splinter forends.
Cliff contends that modern shooters and hunters should embrace the 3” 20 gauge for all of their shotgun needs. Cliff prefers the 20 in SA actions with non-wood stocks, saying that wood is as obsolete for stock use as the 16 Ga. is for clay sports and especially for hunting.
Cliff said that new 16 gauge shotgun shells, cost more than 3” 20’s, have much, much less variety and are as useless as the gauge. Except for the useless part, I agree with Cliff on new ammo choices.
Cliff further believes that 16 gauge affectionados only continue to use the 16 because of nostalgia, as in my Grandpa shot a 16.
If you choose to respond to this ridiculous topic, remember that Cliff did not personally attack or call anyone names.

oh no!! I just started to collect, shoot trap with and reload 16 ga, and now its obsolete? just my luck, same with buying beta vcr tapes and driving a vega.

I forgot to mention that Cliff told me that at least one member on this forum has a warped sense of humor. Rolling Eyes

Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 685 Location: Ontario

Pretty sure I'm obsolete so I make a good match with my 16's.

Joined: 12 Feb 2015 Posts: 100 Location: Oregon

I also own bamboo fly rods and wood shafted golf clubs. There is something special about keeping in touch with history. I however shoot my 16 gauge guns more than I fish with bamboo, or golf with wood shafts.

I can't explain it - it's very , very likely to be withing that all important 6" region between my ears - but I shoot my 16s better than the 12s , 20s and the 28 I have . It may be obsolete according to some , but ask the various dove , pheasant , squirrels and rabbits I've killed with one if it isn't still a damn effective gauge for hunting .

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3178 Location: NCWa

I guess I've never understood why anyone cares. Personally I couldn't care less if anyone else shoots a 16 or not. I do because I want to, and my reasons are many, but they're my own; I don't feel the need to justify them or explain them to anyone, nor to convert anyone. The 20 gaugers and 12 gaugers are fine with me; I just muddle along doing what I do.

Joined: 27 Jan 2016 Posts: 490 Location: Oswego, Kansas

I know I must be obsolete as well! I have a hard time finding any 16ga ammo in my area. Almost as hard as finding any eight track tapes for my stereo! But I show the guys at the gun club that a 16ga SXS can still beat their modern guns!

Joined: 13 Dec 2006 Posts: 694 Location: MN

Sounds like Cliff will be going for driverless cars too...good luck with that.

Joined: 07 Sep 2014 Posts: 419

I never owned a 16 as a kid and never really wanted one until my friend at the club shamed me into buying my first one. Now I have 4 of them and love shooting them no matter how much more a 20 gauge may be able to do. I like 60s Vette's over the much more advanced new ones, still have Tonkin Cane Bamboo fly rods that are tricky to keep in top condition and have about 100 8 track tpes along with a professional 8 track recorder as well as both a Beta VCR and an early large format disc player. Then there is my Ohio Scientific 8 bot computer with the 8" Floppy Drive running CPM. I have bought a lot of flats of Remington No. 8 1 ounce 16 gauge field loads and have thousand of SP-16 wads all ready to turn them into no. 9 skeet loads.

Now maybe I will even buy a new A5 Sweet 16 since I was never a fan of the POW grip on the old ones.

In between sentences, I just pulled out my Browning 525 Sporting in 16 gauge with 30' barrels and a flat of No.8 Estate shells and it is off to the skeet range in the morning, just so I can remember just how obsolete I am.

Bob

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 1114

Dang, I read this post and now I need to go out to the freezer and make sure those bobwhite I shot today with my 16 ga are really dead. My understanding of obsolete means that it can't possibly work. I thought I remembered them dropping with a healthy dose of #8 shot and my pup, Rebel, retrieving them, but I'm sure I must be mistaken. Tomorrow I'll take my older dog, Bode, after chukar and see if I can re-create the illusion of the obsolete 16 ga swatting those birds out of the air. I've got to say though that I'm enjoying all this obsolete stuff way too much.

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3178 Location: NCWa

It's a cultural thing. there are those that see things as getting better and they are the ones that like NEW & IMPROVED, as the advertisements proclaimed a few years back. Anything deemed to be old was cast aside to make room for the new. This viewpoint is heavily reinforced by advertising and magazine writers, both of which are heavily funded by the makers of NEW. If someone has never been exposed to the OTHER side, then they go along in life thinking that what they see in the media is as it is. Those of us on the OTHER side know better and so we stick to our tried and true. We don't have anything against those that use a 3" 20 ga shell and generally just consider the source when they preach to us that a 1 1/4 oz load from a 3" 20 ga is superior to a 1 1/4 oz load from a 16 ga unless they get obnoxious. For those past their formative years very little therapy will ever cause a change in their prejudices, so we just let them continue along their ill informed road. there are a few high quality 16 ga guns available, but with a little perseverance one can find one on the used market. It would be nice if the ammo makers would expand the variety of 16 ga ammo. but until that happens, I'll save the hulls and reload. Smile

Nostalgia?! Harrrummpf! Mad

Let's consider Cliff's nostalgia accusation --

Nostalgia defined: a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations.

Yes, for those of us who have early-life remembrances of the 16 -- guilty as charged. Such guilt does not erase a fact, however: The 16, packaged in an appropriately framed gun represents the sweet-spot in the compromise between handling and effectiveness. That's right. And right is right! Irrefutable. The "right-ness" of the 16 is old news to most of you. How can a return to something so "right" be a source of criticism and guilt? It's not primarily nostalgic, its primarily "right". Shooters were "wronged" by having this good choice made difficult.

Now, if a new shooter somehow discovers the "right-ness" of the 16, how can he be labeled "nostalgic". He's not. He has no historic association with it. He's only recently discovered something very satisfying. For us, the 16 is a gun of today, not a relic of the past for which we are compromising to keep alive. It's not a compromise, it's the epitome of what a shotgun can be! (Whew! . . . I'm almost out of breath! . . . .)

This site exists, in part, to open other minds, maybe even of the Cliff's in the world, to great possibilities.

Thanks Jack, for your sense of humor,
Cheers!