16ga.com ~ View topic - Ithaca 37--one more example of Browning's genious

I recently was involved in a discussion involving how the Model 37 Ithaca shell stop system works. The gun both feeds and ejects from only one port on the bottom. There was a claim that carrying the gun with a shell on the lifters will cause jams. both of mine haven't been jamming, and I began to wonder why. So, I got mine out and studied the parts and how they function to feed a shell as well as stop the next and prevent a jam.

Its ingenious how the problem of using one port to both feed and eject is solved. Browning designed the gun with not one, but two shell stops, one on each side of the reciever. They are of slightly different lengths and the one on the left (with port down) has a vertical dog which is engaged by the bolt as it comes forward to feed the shell.

When the bolt is racked back, it pushes the right stop to the right and frees the shell in the magazine tube just after the lifter/ejector arms come down to accept it. At the shell pushes into the receiver, the left stop is freed to move slightly right, ride along the surface of the shell, and trap the rim of the next shell in line. This prevents a double feed. As the bolt is racked forward, the lifter arms swing up, the dog on the top of the left stop is engaged by the bolt which pushes the stop slightly down and out of the way. As this happens the slightly shorter right stop is cleared to swing left and take over for the now disengaged left stop.

If all the working parts are in good repair and not worn, the whole system prevents any possible double feed from happening regardless whether the shell is immediately fed into the chamber or not. The system works perfectly every time. This is as it should be.

If you have a model 37 pump that is double feeding under any condition, something is either broken or worn past the point of proper function. Go have it fixed. Most likely, one or both of the shell stops are damaged. I'm pretty sure parts are available.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Ol' John was sharp Cool

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

Parts are available, as are instructions-read them.
Best,
Ted

There is no other person living or deceased that I know of that has had "genius" attributed to him more than John Moses Browning.

Joined: 12 Jun 2006 Posts: 23 Location: Ohio

I had the double feed problem on one of my 37s a while back, the stops looked fine and the gun looked pretty much unused

The local gunsmith messed with it for a bit and tracked it down to a weak spring in one of the stops He replaced it with a stiffer spring and all is well now .

it must have some from the factory like that and never worked right so it was put away and never used .so keep an eye on the springs also if you have any troubles

it was a bad . not so much worn part causing the problem in this case

Few folks deserve it more than Jonh B did. His time in shop spanned from days repairing and improving muzzle loading guns to after the advent of full auto squad weapons in the first world war. His insight and intellect improved them all. Some of his designs have yet to be topped. Plus, most if not all the weapon designs of today can be traced back to one or more of his ideas. His legacy is incredable.

m85. Its fascinatiing watching the 37 mechanism work. Glad to here your's is perking along. The 37 really is a hard act to follow. I'm looking forward to seeing the 28 gauge version due out soon. What a perfect companion gauge for the 16 it might be. Too bad Browning doesn't issue a 16/28 Citori 2 barrel set. Wouldn't that be something.

22-250, excellent story. thank you for sharing. I've known a few folks of genious in my time. All of them had one common trait--they would rather follow up on the latest idea the were fascinated with than anything else including eating and/or sleeping. It could drive their family and friends nuts, but that is how many geniouses are built I guess.

My cousin Gene was a genious with passive microwave technology. He would get an idea in his head, and work on it for days or even weeks to the dismissal of almost anything else. He was a terrible businessman, because he'd forget to attend to the details of daily business needs, but his developements helped shape the industry.

Nokola Tesla and some Italian guy from waay back come to mind - 2 more folks who's initial ideas spurned others to investigate further...

The Italian guy apprently invented a zipper and did some painting, Tesla did some stuff with electricity and played with a radio controlled submarine in the mid 1890's...

VERY cool story about John M. too

Most of what the Winchester folks knew about gun design came from going over all the various designs J.B. sold to the company. Only a percentage of the designs he sold them were ever made. Quite a few were snapped up to keep them off the market for various reasons. Some were considered too advanced for the times, and a definate threat to Winchester's marketing philosophy wrapped around the lever action repeater and 19th century thinking.

It was said Winchester actually surpressed the Browning designed slide action pump guns in favor of their lever action shotgun until it became obvious others were working on slide gun designs like Spencer for Marlin. The slide action rifle was already established by Colt. Winchester reluctantly came out with the 1893 which was a smash. the 1897 was an improved model.

By then Browning was working on the A5 auto feeder and considered pumps passe. We all know how Winchester refused his deal which led him to Belgium and FN. No need to rehash it. Winchester screwed up royally on this one. They never did come up with a competative auto loader, even after WWII. Remington beat them to it with the model 1100.

Most likely, the model 12 borrowed quite a bit of the ideas Browning had incorporated into his previous designs. Browning was by then hard at work developing automatic weapons for the coming war and probably decided not to get side tracked in any pattern infringement suits with Winchester. Their own people came up with the rounded action back as a weight saving technique to help it compete with the lighter hinge guns of the day and to make it sleaker looking. But, I'd bet my best Citori 16 most of the internal workings were gleaned from following J.B.'s ideas found in other gun designs. He'd already been there and done that.

It has been said the Reminton 1917 pump was a design Browning had partly developed just prior to 1900. However, he never showed the design to Winchester. He knew they'd view it as too advanced for the market. His original design is also said to have had a square backed profile similar to the A5.

Most folks don't know it, but Browning was an excellent trap shooter who knew the value of a longer sighting plane on a shotgun. His repeating shotguns were square backed for a reason. He shot them better that way. He believed others would too. Some folks still dote on the A5 for pass shooting at ducks because they seem to score better with it on the longer shots. Who can argue with success. Remington did not argue the point when they licenced the rights to make the Reminton 1911 autoloader, an exact duplicate of the A5 in all the important ways.

Browning sold the model 17 design to Remington whose folks rounded off the reciever back for he same reasons as Winchester. Remington, after developing the model 31 out of the model 17, later passed the older design on to Ithaca, who recognizing the possibilities due to the better steels available, expanded the gauges to 16 and 12, and marketed it as the 37 pump. It's still with us today. All the others are long gone except for a used model. That alone says something of the excellence of Model 37 design.

The Model 12 with its side ejection port is a better target gun for trap. No arguement there. However, the Ithaca model 37 is a better field gun on a number of counts in my opinion. It is slicker, quicker and easier to pump for repeat shots, more compact, better balanced, and quicker to the mark for upland bird hunting and low gun skeet. The Remington model 31, which is nothing but a side ejecting 37 is also a much better skeet gun than the Model 12, because it has the ease of side ejection or feeding like a 12, but retains the slicker, quicker pump action of the 37 for doubles shooting.

However, I've probably already started enough battles about this point with the guys who worship at the altwer of the BIG W. So, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go find a quiet table to duckunder after buying a pint of the establishment's best stout. I'll let others younger than I go about the business of donnybrooking over the matter. It's more fun to watch the show at my age. Laughing

Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 145 Location: minnesota

can't help hitting the hornets nest, can you 16gg? Rolling Eyes

i'm sure you didn't forget the 870 and all it's rich history on purpose, so i will refrain from "giving you both barrels" Cool

ANY 16GA in your previous post would be a great addition to our collections, regardless of make or action type Very Happy

IMO

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

The Model 12 is said to have been designed by a long-time member of Winchester's design staff, Thomas Crossley Johnson.....though there is little doubt that Browning was responsible for the design of some of the finest guns America has ever produced; not only the A-5 but the Winchester Model 78, the heavy Winchester lever rifles such as the 1886; the Model 1892 lever rifle, and the 1893 and 1897 Winchester pump shotguns, as well as the Model 1911 Colt Auto and the inimitable .22 Colt Woodsman. And that is aside from numerous military designs that helped us to win two World Wars.

16gg, you forgot to mention that the load from the bottom, eject from the bottom of the 37 helps keep debris from the action when in the field.

Wolfchief, you forgot two of my personal favorites, John's first success, the model 1885 single shot, and the no magazine tube needed model 1895 Winchester levergun.

My 1885 is chambered in caliber 22-250 Rem. As accurate as any bolt gun made, which came as a surprise to me since external hammers usually have a long lock time. The 28" barrel also helps milk all the power from that 65KPSI round.

The 1895 is the 100th anniversary model--all gussied up in silver with gold engraving. Caliber 30 ought 6. I took it deer hunting a couple times but it's still a virgin.

I think of John's genius every time I pick up one of these masterpieces of mechanical engineering. A Rube Goldberg he wasn't!!!