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Joined: 30 Dec 2015 Posts: 31 Location: Arizona

Has anyone read this article on why our (USA) shotgun loads are too heavy, and why we should follow the English ideology w/re to shotshell loading?

http://www.sidebysideshotgun.com/articles/balance_loads_article.html

One thing that Mr. Hollinger fails to state in his article regarding our British cousin's shooting is that a lot of their shooting is over Driven birds. These birds are mostly coming head on. It is a whole lot easier to kill pheasants when the are coming straight to you.

While I agree with some of what Mr. Hollinger has stated, I believe there is a place for heavier loads.

When I am hunting close-in Mearns quail a 11/16 oz 28ga load of 7's works magic.

I hunt a LOT of pheasant in the country of Mexico. When I am in the blocking position at the end of the field, the pheasants are being driven to me, with most of the shot presentations are overhead. For this situation, I use a 28ga Winchester Super Sport loaded with 3/4 oz of 7 1/2. This load will kill overhead pheasants all day long.

However, when I am pushing those freshly cut milo fields I change to 12ga Fiocchi Golden Pheasant loads with 1 5/8 oz of nickel plated 5 or 6's. With this load we don't loose many pheasants!

Both light and heavy loads do have their place.

Well, I agree and disagree.

I do believe there is a place for both light and heavy loads, mostly for pellet count/pattern density issues.

However the more experience I get (older haha) the more I realize that (for me) anything over 1 1/8 oz. is wasting perfectly good shot for any upland shooting I have done.

Basically I use 1 1/8 oz. of 6's for pheasants, prairie chickens, huns, sharp tails, grouse etc and 7/8 oz. of 7 1/2's for the smaller birds.

I am not recoil sensitive, so that doesn't have any bearing on this post, but I haven't really seen my success rate get any better shooting 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 in my 12 gauge guns.

I gave up on the 12 gauge and the heavy loads in 1994 and I haven't looked back.

Member Joined: 15 Mar 2007 Posts: 601 Location: Virginia

The article is bull for the most part. The "expert" keeps talking about square loads and balanced loads and pellets being scrubbed when in reality there is no such thing as a square load nor a balanced load and most pellets in factory shells are protected within the shot cup from barrel scrubbing. Tellingly, he says that the long shot string impacts on water is caused by scrubbing and deformation. Steel doesn't deform and any barrel scrubbing would bring howls from the shooters after they looked down the barrel.

Target shells are loaded the way they are because of the rules of the game, not because they're the ultimate balanced, square, or what-have-you. Trap used to be shot with 1-1/4 oz, as was FITASC. The rules were changed to make it MORE challenging, also the case with international skeet. The older heavy loads were just too effective. You can go ahead and shoot light loads on game, but I don't think you'll be doing yourself or, more importantly, the gamebirds, any favors.

Joined: 30 Dec 2015 Posts: 31 Location: Arizona

All good points. Couldn't agree more.

I believe it's all about balancing the load, with the gun, with the game.

Thanks for your input.

I have had a few conversations with the author and as a result he did not fit my guns to my dimensions.
The most lead that I throw at game birds is 1 1/8 oz. of #5 1/2 (2nd barrel for late season pheasant) and the least amount is 3/4 oz. of #7 shot for mountain grouse. All of my loads are tested on my pattern board and shot penetration jig at the distances that I shoot.
I think that most would think that my loads are light, but I can assure you that they are just right for the birds I shoot at the distances that I shoot.

And after all this work this horse is still dead.

Joined: 19 Apr 2008 Posts: 477

Funny how things work. I was always a 1 1/4 oz of 5's for pheasant kind of guy. Last year I started having some eye issues and was concerned about recoil. For my last hunt in SD I loaded up a bunch of 1 oz loads at 1180 fps and shot them through my 12 ga Beretta 390. They functioned fine and had virtually no recoil. The effect on pheasants? I shot as well as I ever have. Everything I hit came down. No major crippling issues. The misses just kept on going. Maybe there is something to this less is more concept.

Joined: 15 Mar 2015 Posts: 118 Location: Manhattan KS

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2124 Location: Hudson,Wy

One thing I have noticed after engaging in arguments over the years is that most folks never test loads at ranges where any of this will even matter. Over at Shotgunworld and a few other sites I partook in some of the debates on velocity and payload and don't recall anyone actually spending any great effort patterning beyond 40 yards. Hunters who shoot inside of 40 yards really have little to worry about, almost any load works as long as shot size is appropriate.
Having played with 16,12, and 10 ga. guns in the 50-70 yard zone I did find which writers were on the money and who was full of beans. Without going into an essay I will say that medium weight charges at moderate velocities pay the biggest dividends with lead shot. 70-100 days in the field for birds each year provides "final testing".
Of course there are times I want to deviate from these parameters, especially when loading "brush loads" for grouse.

Shot penetration jig:
While unscientific, a shot penetration jig can be easily made with a 4' length of 2"x 4" and a table saw using a dado blade. Make your cuts 3/8" apart, insert pieces of 1 foot square common corrugated cardboard (CCB) into each slot. Place the loaded 2" x 4" at a height of about 5' and shoot at the distances you normally shoot.
My bench mark was factory ammo at a known shot size and velocity. Requires a chronograph.
e.g. Shoot four 1oz. Factory loads of #6 shot at a distance of 37 yards with a mod choke, measuring the velocity of each shot. Count the CCB panels penetrated. Load and shoot four similar load, measure the velocities and count the penetrated CCB panels. I discovered that if shot size and velocity are equal, penetration is about the same.
My best 16 Ga. pheasant load patterns were obtained using 1 and 1 1/8 ounce loads assembled with CARD AND FIBER WADS and nickel plated shot in RMC brass hulls.

Most of us have fit and tried over the decades re scattergun payload and all else.
Most of us find that Internet expert advise on any Best is near totally tailored to promoting individual differences and preferences along with individual needs to justify personal decisions re cost, et al....sometimes folks simply desire to be a member of a Jones clan.

Honest Fit & Try is a pretty sound way to go, as gamebirds and all that surround them vary too much to reckon that any one cognoscenti has the true skinny.
What is also a sound idea is to consider that misses and woundings are not always clear to the hunter's eye.....we can tend to be a mite optimistic in interpretation....hope does that.

Perfect?......as regards any measurable factor, perfect seldom carries much value.
Deciding when not to shoot is far better than assuming any shot is covered by the latest in Best....or perfect.
Birds trump tool.
imso, of course.

Joined: 30 Dec 2015 Posts: 31 Location: Arizona

I've tried almost every combination of gauge, 28ga to 12ga, and shot/shell #9 2 3/4 to #4 3 1/2" for my Mexico pheasant hunting.

Although a 28ga with #7 1/2 Winchester Super Sports can work when blocking and shooting those low overhead pheasants, I've found that I've taken to using 12ga 3" 1 5/8oz nickel plated #5's Ficcohi Golden Pheasant loads for most other MX pheasant situations.

http://www.randywakeman.com/TalkingTurkeyAboutPelletPenetration.htm
"No. 5 lead shot, fired at the same velocity, is dramatically better than steel, giving more penetration at 45 yards than the same size steel pellet can manage at 20 yards. No wonder #5 lead has been a solid pheasant and duck pellet for so long. The issue with #5 lead is not penetration on turkeys, though. At extended ranges, lead patterns quickly become unacceptable thin as the pattern board shows. In the 35-40 yard arena, a heavy payload of #5 lead in a quality shell with a quality choke, fired at moderate or slightly lower than standard velocities can often pattern sufficiently well."

Likewise, a 28ga loaded with 11/16oz of #9's works well for me when shooting close range doves here in S.AZ, but I like switching to 12ga 1 1/8oz of #6's for those hard flying Eurasian Collared-Doves that have take over in many parts of NE Sonora MX.

Again, like several of the members have stated, it is all about what works for your shooting situation.

I have found 1 oz loads work on preserve birds ( pheasant, chukar, & quail) but only found them consistent on wild quail. For grouse, pheasant, and prairie chicken 1 1/8 early season and 1 1/4 for late season roosters.

I usually shoot mostly 7/8 on targets

I keep all loads in the 1100-1150 FPS range regardless of weight

For shot size I use 7.5 for targets. #7's for quail, prairie chickens, and early season pheasant. Late season I follow with #5's.

Much depends on the range and direction of the birds you have...if we are talking about wild pheasant. Black Stewart is right about the difference between fly by birds and flushed going away birds. I've used a 20, 16, and 12 on these birds, and they all will take going away pheasant at the range they are intended for, with 12 gauge 1-1/4 ounce being the longest range load of the three. I base this on records i have kept for the last 20 years of hunting in Montana, North and South Dakota.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2124 Location: Hudson,Wy

It is all about target range and not bird size. I have killed a great many mature blue grouse with 1/2 oz. of chilled 6 shot fired through a skeet choke. They are bigger than pheasants. The ranges are typically under 25 yards and shots range from quarrying to crossing. A load of 1 1/4oz. would have been very messy.
I have also resorted to tight chokes and the most efficient buffered loads I could build for Hungarian partridges more than any other bird I have hunted. In Wyoming, they are not a patient bird but I enjoy hunting them often and go equipped for what I expect.
The point is to match choke and load to conditions if you want consistent results. And a miss is still nonetheless a miss.