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I agree it has much to do with range and choke. Unfortunately even with good setters range and angle is not always predictable. We don't alays get the shot we want, but can pick you shot you'll take.

I shoot mostly open choke .05 & .15 for what it is worth. Another gun I use for preserve shooting is cylinder, cylinder.

All said the perfect load is completely subjective, though I would argue it is lighter than many actually use

From Blackstewart:

I hunt a LOT of pheasant in the country of Mexico. When I am in the blocking position at the end of the field, the pheasants are being driven to me, with most of the shot presentations are overhead. For this situation, I use a 28ga Winchester Super Sport loaded with 3/4 oz of 7 1/2. This load will kill overhead pheasants all day long.

However, when I am pushing those freshly cut milo fields I change to 12ga Fiocchi Golden Pheasant loads with 1 5/8 oz of nickel plated 5 or 6's. With this load we don't loose many pheasants!

Yup. I agree based on personal experience. An incoming rooster at close range is a lot easier to cleanly kill than a departing one w/ a tail wind out past 30 yards.

Incomers have their heads and necks completely exposed. A well placed pattern of 7.5 shot in the noggin will dump them every time. But even with their heads shot to junk, they might flop around or even get up and sprint into the shrubs. Their reptilian nervous systems can take an amazing amount of damage and still function. So be ready for it and watch where they go or risk losing them.

Potting an outgoing a rooster in the fanny w/ a light load of fine shot is a sure recipe for "no birds today stew". A heavy load of #5 shot can be marginal if none of the major wing and leg bones are snapped. A 1-1/2 ounce load of #4 shot put right on an outgoing bird will do it all day and out past 40 yards in my experience.

So I guess the moral to the story is to use the load what works for you on the birds your hunting under the conditions you're hunting in and forget what the so called experts say. They can't possibly know squat about it 'cause they ain't there w/ you. Wink

I didn't know that Mexico had pheasant, please tell us where in Mexico.

Joined: 30 Dec 2015 Posts: 31 Location: Arizona

Sounds like you and I have very similar loads for what works for us. I shoot most all my upland in the USA with a 28ga. 7-7 1/2 for Mearns quail, 7 1/2-9 for dove.

However, I'm in the process of acquiring a 16ga SxS (probably a Merkel, Garbi or AYA) to hunt Gambel and Scale quail with. I'll probably shot 7 1/2 & 6's for those desert track stars.

Mexico is a different story. I use to take both 28 & 12ga shotguns down, but the Mexican gov't has gotten too crazy about shotgun ammo limits. So now I only take down 2 12ga's. My ammo is: Pheasant, Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 1 3/8 nickel plated 5 or 6's, and for Dove, which last season was about 75% Eurasian Dove, 1 - 1 1/8 #6's Those Eurasian Doves will absorb a lot of shot. I will shoot 7 1/2'-8 on morning dove, if we get into them.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2125 Location: Hudson,Wy

7 1/2 or 6 shot for scales?! Those shot sizes down chukars and huns with authority at some pretty lengthy distances. I have literally bagged 1000+ scaled quail over the years and an ounce of 8 1/2's will cut 'em clean at 40 yards all day. 8's have serious reach in a tight choked gun.

Joined: 30 Dec 2015 Posts: 31 Location: Arizona

While you are certainly welcome to you option, I can only share based on my experiences.

I don't like runners, and gambel/scale quail down here in the S.E. AZ desert will run and hide. You & dog can spend a lot of time gathering up those wounded birds. Not to mention that a dog filled with cactus can ruin the days hunt.

I'll shoot 7 1/2 or 6's all day long if it helps me avoid runners and cactus.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2125 Location: Hudson,Wy

My personal experience indicates more crippling from using too coarse of a shot size. Too many broken wing birds that otherwise would have also received a pellet or two in a vital area with smaller shot.
The goal with load and shot choice is to run out of both punch and pattern at the same time otherwise it becomes a case of sparse coverage or inadequate penetration and knock down sooner than should be.
I don't like cripples or picking nasty cacti from my dog either. There is also something to be said for shooting a bird twice when needed and for picking which shots not to take.

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

Oh, and I'm still waiting to hear about this pheasant hunting in Mexico! I think a lot of folks reading this thread are interested in this, Blackstewart, can you tell a bit more on this?

Only pheasant I know of in AZ are game preserve birds, maybe there's one small area near Yuma according to AZGF; what type of pheasant are you discussing in Mex, wild or set, etc? Love to hear more about this!

Joined: 30 Dec 2015 Posts: 31 Location: Arizona

Pheasants in Mexico. They are the same Ringneck birds we have here in the US. I've been hunting down there just over 18 years. Just southeast of Mexicali and southwest of Yuma

IMHO, posting photos here is too difficult, but if you PM me you email address I will send you some photos and contact information.

We shoot a LOT of morning, whitewing and Eurasian doves also.

*Last edited by old colonel on Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:22 am; edited 1 time in total*

My father shoot pheasants in Mexico once in the 70's. I can't say if pen raised or not, but I assume they were as they don't breed in Kansas very far south of Kansas.

Have been hunting AZ dove and quail for 40 years and I like 7 1/2" on doves and #7 for Gambel Quail. Anything smaller and I get too many cripples. My GSP's find and retrieve them for me but I would prefer they spend their time looking for more birds to point.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2125 Location: Hudson,Wy

Dave, the science stuff certainly is interesting. While fun to play around with, I quit using theoretical pellet coverage not long after taking up studies of such things. A 4.5" circle seems a bit generous considering the actual size of the quail's brain and breast region without the feathers. Real patterns vary.
The bottom line is to fire some patterns with whatever you want to try on paper and look for holes where a bird would slip through. Or worse yet look for spots where a bird might get a nothing more than a broken wing if we are talking about runners like chukars, pheasants, and quail. Take into account different shot angles and the fact that there is some loss to stringing no matter how good the load is.
I do stand by my recommendations though, 80-100 days in the field each season do tend to cement my observations of what is and isn't working out in general and with each gun. This thread asks what we think and I merely share what I have discovered in hope that it will benefit others.

I believe that shot placement trumps payload and pellet size.

There are those that lead the body or take shots that place pellets in the body of a bird.

There are those that lead the head of the bird.

The guys that lead the head are not going to need the heavier payloads or large shot sizes. If you are of the mindset to hit birds in the head than there are shots you don't take, such as a dead going away shot, when you cannot see the head on the larger birds, such as pheasant.

i have never seen large lead pellet sizes kill birds pheasant size and down consistently. While 5's and 4's knock a lot of birds down many times those sizes do not kill them as well as 6's, unless you use heavy (like 1 1/2 oz.) payloads. I see no reason for these huge payloads. I don't claim to have the same experience as Wyo, but I stopped using the heavy loads after the second year hunting in Iowa. That was back in 1993.

That's my 2 cents, YMMV. Cool