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Jimbo
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:04 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 35
Location: United States

Has anyone here seen the new Browning BPT 16 ga. loads? Do they have brass bases, or just brass plated steel bases?

I own two 16 ga. guns. They have chamber diameters at the extremes of the SAAMI spec. So after I fire the looser gun, the shells need considerable resizing before I put them in the tighter gun. I've owned three 16 ga. reloaders (all purchased new). None of them handled steel base hulls well. The hulls either got stuck in the resizing die, or I had to make multiple passes through the resizing collet - sometimes five or six passes.

Fiochii, Cheddite, Remington, Federal, Winchester. All the ones I have bought had steel bases, or copper plated steel bases. Haven't bought any new loaded ammo in a while, because of restrictions NY places on online purchases.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:05 pm  Reply with quote
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Brass is no better than steel they both harden ,fatigue and crack from ignition heat and resizing. The more extreme the change from fired to resized dimensions the shorter the life of the hull.

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Jimbo
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 35
Location: United States

byrdog wrote:
Brass is no better than steel they both harden ,fatigue and crack from ignition heat and resizing. The more extreme the change from fired to resized dimensions the shorter the life of the hull.


Thanks for replying, but brass is much easier to resize than steel based hulls because the tensile strength is so much lower, and because they do not spring back like steel. That is why people like to resize WInchester AA hulls.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:35 pm  Reply with quote
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not if you use the right tools

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If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
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My condolences for living in New York.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:52 am  Reply with quote
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Jimbo wrote:
byrdog wrote:
Brass is no better than steel they both harden ,fatigue and crack from ignition heat and resizing. The more extreme the change from fired to resized dimensions the shorter the life of the hull.


Thanks for replying, but brass is much easier to resize than steel based hulls because the tensile strength is so much lower, and because they do not spring back like steel. That is why people like to resize WInchester AA hulls.


Most of us realize brass is easier to resize, but today, ordinance grade brass is less available and considerably more expensive than mild sheet steel made from reclaimed material. Since there are no 16 ga premium target loads or hulls being manufactured, all 16 gauge hulls are manufactured at the lowest cost w/ bases stamped and formed from mild steel sheet stock. This is why I always recommend getting a 16 ga. reloader w/ an adjustable collet resizer. It always saves the owner a lot of frustration.

Steel bases are harder to resize, but they are also more resistant to over expansion when fired. Steel bases tend to spring back more from the chamber walls when the loads are fired. So once steel bases are initially resized to minimum specs to fit in any in spec chamber, they tend to remain sized to the chamber they are fired in and are much easier to resize for subsequent reloadings--at least in my experience.

I also find that the plastic hull mouths of clean, once fired hulls will become worn out and fail much sooner than either brass or steel bases will become work hardened to the point of failure. In my experience, metal hull bases fail due to corrosion, not from being over worked.

I recommend keeping your fired hulls clean and dry, and don't try to reload them past usefulness. Hull base failure won't become a problem if you do so.

Good luck w/ your Mec reloader. It's an excellent machine IMO.
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Jimbo
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:36 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 35
Location: United States

byrdog wrote:
not if you use the right tools


If you have some idea what "the right tool" is, please say so! I've loaded at least 2500 16 ga. rounds on three machines: a Ponsness Warren 375, and two Mec Grabbers. All three were brand new when I started reloading 16 ga. None of them did a good job resizing the steel based hulls. In every case I had to force them into the sizing die, or cycle them through the collet resizer multiple times. I check the rounds with a go/no go sizing gauge or a pair of micrometers.

I've loaded another 4000 in 20 ga. and perhaps 3500 in 12 ga., both brass and steel base. Never had the problems I have with 16 ga. That is because, as I said before, one of my guns has chambers that are at the loose limit of the spec, and the other at the tight limit of the spec.
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Jimbo
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
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Don't get me started about MEC quality. I've been in manufacturing for 35 years, and a machinist the last 15, so I know something about the subject.

I own a MEC Sizemaster in 20 ga. and a MEC 9000 in 12 ga. I've owned two brand new MEC Grabbers in 16 ga. The 9000 is a good machine. The Sizemaster only so-so. The Grabbers both pretty bad in the quality department. MEC quality control has slipped over the years, and I have friends who say the same thing. How else could they let a brand new machine leave the factory with the measure assembly bent almost 15 degrees? (not shipping damage) Both I and my friends have reported un-anodized charge bars, and POWDER BUSHINGS WITH THE WRONG SIZE HOLES! In fact, we found three bushings (different numbers all with the same identical size hole! As for why the 16 ga. machines are so poor, my theory is that the tooling they use to make parts has worn out. They don't have much demand for 16 ga. machines, so they won't invest in new tooling.


The 16 ga. pre-crimpers are so dull, they won't start the crimp on virgin hulls. I ordered a half dozen of them a couple years back, and they are all dull compared to their 20 and 12 ga. counterparts. The 20 and 12 ga. pre-crimpers will crimp a virgin hull. The 16 ga part will not.

The holes for the turret assembly look like they were hacked in with a hand drill. Some are not even normal (right angles) to the plate. So the tooling doesn't come down square to the shell carrier.

The shell carrier doesn't rotate smoothly. The primer drop is unreliable. And I keep all my machines very well adjusted and lubricated.

I have other problems with MEC. The machines are way overpriced for being made from stamped steel parts. There are so many things they could do to improve the machines. For instance, why two nuts on the ball crimp pin? You need two wrenches to set the height. Why the heck don't they make it easy for customers by threading the turret 1/4-20 to match the pin? They you could do the adjustment with one wrench. How much cost could it add to the machine to put in a 1/4-20 threaded hole instead of the sloppy .280 clearance hole?

You say steel bases are "resistant" to over expansion. Not so. Whether brass or steel, the base of the hull will expand to the diameter of the chamber. It is called Fire Forming, and it occurs with one shot. I don't reload my hulls more than five or six times. And as I said in my previous post, I have one gun with loose chambers and one with tight chambers. (Both are in spec.) Considerable sizing has to be done to get the fire formed hulls into the tighter gun (or my go gage).
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df
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 962
Location: Minnesota

You may be right about the quality machining and fabrication of MEC loaders. I have four different Sizemasters and they turn our great ammo. I wish I knew how many 10,000s of rounds they have produced. I do have primer feed issues sometimes, especially on my 28Ga. If I ever wear one out, another will replace it.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:58 pm  Reply with quote
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the Super Sizers are the only Mec tools I own. I have 4 PW 375's and a PW 9000 with all available tooling. The Super Sizer is adjustable and can be set up to leave the steel head at factory dimensions. All the hulls I load are sized on one of these before going to the press. 250 hulls takes about 15 min. I do have a few hundred Fiocchi 10ga that have all brass heads. after the first firing they need the same treatment any way.

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If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/
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Square Load
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:53 pm  Reply with quote
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Getting back to the original post, I saw some Browning 16ga target loads at Sportsman's Warehouse last night. They were nestled in between the 12 and 20 gauge Browning target loads. The 12 & 20's were $7.99 a box and the 16's were $14.99 WTF!

Guess I could take a magnet with me this weekend and see if they are steel or brass rims. They are a nice glossy black hull and the box says made in Australia.

If the 12 & 20's are black Win AA hulls that is a good price. I think I will call Browning and ask them what is going on with the 16ga price. Evidently they don't care about selling any of these.

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Current 16ga. Stable

Browning Citori Gr I
Browning Belgium Sweet 16
A.H. Fox Sterlingworth
Remington 11-48
Remington 31
Remington 870
Geco/J.P. Sauer BLNE
Winchester Mod 12
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Jimbo
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:37 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 35
Location: United States

Square Load wrote:
Getting back to the original post, I saw some Browning 16ga target loads at Sportsman's Warehouse last night. They were nestled in between the 12 and 20 gauge Browning target loads. The 12 & 20's were $7.99 a box and the 16's were $14.99 WTF! ........


Wow! It wound be one thing if they were specialized hunting loads. They're not getting any sales from me.
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Soggy socks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2016
Posts: 369
Location: Vermont

I saw some at Gander last weekend. Looked like nothing special but high priced. Pretty box. I bought two cases of Fiocchi's for $75.00 per case with tax (not at Gander)1 oz of 8's. I'll shoot em out of my Citori at SC instead of my 12 for a few weeks.
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grassfarmer
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 77
Location: New Enterprise, Pa

Had some ordered from cabelas back in april. Got an email that the order was canceled. No big deal. Just went ahead and ordered a couple more cases of herters to add to my 16 gauge ammo stash. Basically got two cases for one Very Happy

Lon
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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:44 pm  Reply with quote
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I'm always amazed at the prices of 16ga ammo in the big box stores. It's like they deliberately price it too high to sell, so that they can then say that there isn't much demand. It's self fulfilling. Seems like Cabela's is the only one that has it right.

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