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I have an ancient supply of once fired 12 Ga. Winchester Ranger paper hulls and was wondering if their inner dimensions are the same as AA's. If not, are there any hulls that are the same internally and or does anyone have any load data for the Ranger hulls?

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3177 Location: NCWa

Some of my older loading manuals clump the various WW paper hulls with the same loads, claiming that they were virtually the same. It may have been correct, or as I suspect, the loads were developed using pressure measuring equipment while good by standards of the time, did not measure as precisely as present day equipment.

*Last edited by skeettx on Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Lyman Shotshell Handbook, 1st Edition
Pages 108 - 111

Has all these hulls and loads

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lyman-Shotshell-Handbook-First-Complete-Edition-1969-Reloading-Shotshells-/361619038818?hash=item54322ca262:g:P4kAAOSwepJXY00A

I used to load buckets full of these hulls with an old Lee Loader and rubber headed hammer. The powder of that day for target loads was PB See both Lee guides (pages 1 & 2)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?189173-Lee-Loader-instructions&p=3054479#post3054479

Mike

AM and Skeet, Thank You. Very Happy

skeet,
10-4 on Lyman's 1st. Man, you brought back some memories of loading paper 16 gauge hulls with PB powder using a Lee Handloader back in the late 60s for this guy. My brother and I used to buy PB in glazed paper pouches with fold ties (kinda like some of todays coffee sacks) by the pound from a local sporting goods store back in those days. As best I can remember, PB is about all we used back then. On semester break from college in 1970-71, my brother and I loaded about a case of the above to keep in shells on our quail hunts during the break. Thanks for the memories! Very Happy

Skeet and others:

The paper cases I loaded were mainly Federals: From Lyman's #1:

Federal paper or plastic cases; 1 oz. shot; PB 18.0, 20.0 or 21.0 gr.; Federal 209; various card and fiber cushions and Federal shot cups; 1,130, 1,225 and 1,240 fps; 8,100, 10,100 and 10,300 LUP.

Got a test for you--what is one indication that you've loaded paper hulls all they need to be loaded--time to throw them away?

And . . . . . ?

*Last edited by skeettx on Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Pin holes in the casing
and
Mouth fibers seperating

If I were to load 12 ga win papers today I would use 18 grains of Red Dot and a Win wad that would hold 7/8 ounce of shot

Mike

We got a winner! Shocked

Skeetx, you want some 16 gauge Herter's wads or some 12 gauge Lage Uniwads for your prize?

Powder burn pin holes at the junction of brass and paper is the answer I was looking for. Shoot 'em again and they might get a whole lot bigger!

If you reload paper Federals enough times and the pin holes don't get you the split rims probably will!

The Lyman #1 recipes I posted above are for 16 gauge, not 12. Ooops, again.

*Last edited by skeettx on Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total*

He he he
Thanks, but, I have a few cases of old Herter's wads, they look like they are stout enough for steel shot, have yet to experiment with them.

WELL???? Which wads do you have??

Mike

Member Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Posts: 2168 Location: Florida

*Last edited by skeettx on Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Let me see if I understand what you want

You want a picture of the Herter's 16 gauge wad that I think might
be stout enough for steel shot? Correct?

If so, yes, I can do that but it will take a few days as I have some of my
spare reloading things stored in an overseas shipping container out of town.

Mike

Member Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Posts: 2168 Location: Florida

Yes that is what i was asking , but don't go through all the trouble , not that big of a deal .

Man you really do have alot of STUFF , I haven't had to resort to overseas containers that are out of town ........Yet .

*Last edited by skeettx on Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total*

YOU are worth the effort Very Happy

Member Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Posts: 2168 Location: Florida

Mike your the Best !!!![/b]

I have loaded lots of paper Winchester/Western hulls in 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410. The low brass hulls (Win Ranger and Western Xpert) are high inside -- low capacity. The high brass hulls (Win Super-Speed and Western Super-X) are low inside. The red Winchester AA12R wad with it's bigger diameter overshot cup and short length was made for target loads in paper Rangers and Xperts. Yes, nowadays it is sold as a wad for 1 3/8 ounce loads, for which it works in hulls of greater capacity because it's short.

These paper W-W hulls have a tendency to fail by loosening of the inside"cup" of their multi-piece basewads. If these hulls are old --and surely they are a half century old by now, or nearly so -- they can dry out and those basewad parts can easily come out on firing and lodge in the barrel. If you look at a cross section of W-W loads of that era (right on the side of the box) you will see a paper overshot cup seal - cup facing downward toward the powder, of course, which works really well - as well as any plastic obturating cup - and was one of Olin's bragging points. Under the powder there is a similar paper cup, facing upward toward the powder, bonded to the rest of the basewad. Of course it has a big flash hole through it for ignition. That cup gets flimsy after reloading, or loose with age, and can come out. If you load those hulls, I recommend you fire them only in a break-action gun, so you can easily inspect the barrels for large debris. Imagine my surprise a few years ago when I looked down the barrel of my nice, new AyA #2 and found one of those cup wads. I have no idea if that had happened before, but it won't happen again, if I do my little post-fire/pre-load inspection.

The early W-W plastic hulls that are ribbed and not compression-formed are built the same way inside as their last paper hulls, and offer the same hazards to the reloader/shooter. Take a look inside if you're not sure what you have, because, of course Winchester switched to a plastic basewad in these polyformed cases a few decades ago, and those newer polyformed hulls look similar, but do not have the problem. I no longer reload any of these W-W hulls of this multi-piece paper basewad construction -- the hazard, however small, is unappealing to me, seeming only to have the potential to negatively affect the economics and pleasure of my shooting.