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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ More Patterns (WARNING-This post might contain bloviation.) |
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Posted:
Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:39 pm
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Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn
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I have used the federal hull load except that I got the best patterns using a WW209 primer |
_________________ ALWAYS wear the safety glasses
If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/ |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:18 am
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Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2067
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)
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Dave E , I wish I had your patience for patterning , but never have . the most I got done this summer is some messing with some 28ga mags . Just used a 24 can pop divider with a s-n-s in the middle . It was a bit of an eye opener . The lead loads were erratic and not spectacular . However , the hevi loads at 35 yds would cream a rooster(mod choke) . I believe I have my line up for this fall if a trip to SoDak is in the offing .(a 16ga M31 and my 28 Red Label which I did the patterns with) |
_________________ Molly sez AArrrooooooah ! |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:44 am
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Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1732
Location: Central Missouri
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Remember paper is paper , better shoot targets that fly before you determine that load meets your expectations !
Turkey loads are for shooting paper , flying game loads are to be shot on flying targets .
Best regards, Nick |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:08 am
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Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Lancaster county, Pa
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They look good still a little dense but better. That gun outta be a killer. Dead in the air patterns for sure. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:12 am
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pudelpointer wrote: |
They look good still a little dense but better. That gun outta be a killer. Dead in the air patterns for sure.
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I'd rather ere a little on the tight side. Very happy with the .005 & .015! Thanks! |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:14 am
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2168
Location: Florida
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Dave Erickson wrote: |
pudelpointer wrote: |
They look good still a little dense but better. That gun outta be a killer. Dead in the air patterns for sure.
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I'd rather ere a little on the tight side. Very happy with the .005 & .015! Thanks!
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They don't all get to the target at the same time anyway. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:31 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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Charles Hammack wrote: |
Remember paper is paper , better shoot targets that fly before you determine that load meets your expectations ! Turkey loads are for shooting paper , flying game loads are to be shot on flying targets .
Best regards, Nick
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Bingo. A pattern on paper is one dimensional. A shot swarm is three dimensional. Both target and shot swarm time of flight can be considered a fourth dimension, because the target flies through the shot swarm and vice versa.
So patterning on paper might be a useful indicator the load/choke combo might or might not be a good one. Smacking some clay targets at a range of distances we expect to be shooting birds is also recommended.
How's that for some pure D bloviatin'? |
Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:37 am
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The purest! |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:50 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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Dave Erickson wrote: |
pudelpointer wrote: |
They look good still a little dense but better. That gun outta be a killer. Dead in the air patterns for sure.
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I'd rather ere a little on the tight side. Very happy with the .005 & .015! Thanks!
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Yup. It's a lot easier to open a pattern than tighten it up. And yup, 5 points and 10 points of choke (IC/Mod) is a good choke selection for closer in targets. Approximately 10 points and 20 points (quarter choke/three quarter choke) is a good one for longer ranges. We can also use spreader loads in the second if needs be. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:29 am
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida
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Un-Bingo! Stationary flat target patterning is very relevant. Of course, for sure, if there is any angular path difference between the moving target and the shot swarm, it will affect how many pellets hit the target. However, a shooter seldom encounters a target with sufficient crossing speed speed to make enough difference to invalidate stationary flat target patterning. Yes, really fast, and distant targets of high deflection angle show the effect, but this does not invalidate stationary flat target patterning as a relative figure of merit unless the shot swarm is very "patchy" along its length. An extreme example would be a big blob of shot in front with a long space of next to nothing, and then another big blob in the back end of the charge -- it just doesn't happen. Usually the longitudinal distribution tapers smoothly. That being the case, I do wonder about longitudinal shot distribution in the swarm when using layered-style spreader loads, but I digress.
Yes, you can do the math and figure out how far the target moves 90 degrees to the path of the shot swarm, during the passing of the swarm, but are the fringe pellets in on the action anyway, because they are slower, and is not the effective shot swarm length much shorter in the part of the pattern that does the work than the overall 6 to 12 feet that have been measured?
Read what Bob Brister has to say on it in "Shotgunning, The Art and Science". Gerald Burrard, Brister, Bruce Buck, E.D. Lowery, Oberfell and Thompson, etc all discovered the same thing. See some links below. The last link uses some high-speed photography. I'm sure there is more of this out there, too. You can call it worn-out conventional wisdom in which you don't believe, or you can recognize it as a preponderance of evidence -- science instead of quackery.
https://shotgunreport.com/2014/04/29/shot-string-2/
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shot_string.htm
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2011/08/measuring-shot-string-high-speed-video |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:47 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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MaximumSmoke wrote: |
Un-Bingo! Stationary flat target patterning is very relevant. Of course, for sure, if there is any angular path difference between the moving target and the shot swarm, it will affect how many pellets hit the target. However, a shooter seldom encounters a target with sufficient crossing speed speed to make enough difference to invalidate stationary flat target patterning. Yes, really fast, and distant targets of high deflection angle show the effect, but this does not invalidate stationary flat target patterning as a relative figure of merit unless the shot swarm is very "patchy" along its length. An extreme example would be a big blob of shot in front with a long space of next to nothing, and then another big blob in the back end of the charge -- it just doesn't happen. Usually the longitudinal distribution tapers smoothly. That being the case, I do wonder about longitudinal shot distribution in the swarm when using layered-style spreader loads, but I digress.
Yes, you can do the math and figure out how far the target moves 90 degrees to the path of the shot swarm, during the passing of the swarm, but are the fringe pellets in on the action anyway, because they are slower, and is not the effective shot swarm length much shorter in the part of the pattern that does the work than the overall 6 to 12 feet that have been measured?
Read what Bob Brister has to say on it in "Shotgunning, The Art and Science". Gerald Burrard, Brister, Bruce Buck, E.D. Lowery, Oberfell and Thompson, etc all discovered the same thing. See some links below. The last link uses some high-speed photography. I'm sure there is more of this out there, too. You can call it worn-out conventional wisdom in which you don't believe, or you can recognize it as a preponderance of evidence -- science instead of quackery.
https://shotgunreport.com/2014/04/29/shot-string-2/
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shot_string.htm
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2011/08/measuring-shot-string-high-speed-video
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"So patterning on paper might be a useful indicator the load/choke combo might or might not be a good one." Yup, it's relevant. Said that. Whole answer? Nope. Takes shooting targets for the whole picture to emerge.
Over my trap shooting years, I pattern tested a big bunch of different target loads. Some looked super on paper, but left a lot to be desired in actual performance on the clays. And vice versa.
My pet 7/8 ounce singles load does not look all that great on paper, but it smoke balls targets at least as good as any other load I've ever tried. Who knew? Go figure.
If you are going to join in on our bloviatin', then please read all relevant previous bloviatin' before bloviatin' your own self. Thank you. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:29 pm
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Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Lancaster county, Pa
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Interesting math Maximum smoke brought up. If the shot is traveling at 800 fps and the shot string in 12' long how far can a bird move through it while traveling 30mph? |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:05 pm
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If only we could get good high speed photography to capture a bird or inanimate target quartering away as a pattern passes through it. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:11 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2168
Location: Florida
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pudelpointer wrote: |
Interesting math Maximum smoke brought up. If the shot is traveling at 800 fps and the shot string in 12' long how far can a bird move through it while traveling 30mph?
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That depends where the bird is at in the pattern when it hits it , front , back ,center , top ,bottom ??? |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:55 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy
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Do most of you really hunt, or worry about stuff like this?
Dale |
_________________ One man with courage makes a majority.
...Andrew Jackson... |
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