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NY16ga
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:36 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
Location: New York

16ga friends, I'm hoping for some general advice about English (or Scottish) side-by-side's. First of all, I should say that I agonize over gear before I actually pull the trigger (so to speak) I read reviews and do research and try things out extensively. Maybe its a little too much but, generally speaking, its worked for me. The goal is to have a relatively small amount of gear that is the right gear.

Anyway, all of this is to say that I'm starting to consider an English or Scottish gun. I've planned for awhile now to buy a quality but plain jane boxlock and had more or less settled on a new Ugartechea or used Aya 4/53. I continue to think either of those would be a good choice but have always been enamored of the English guns. I thought price and availability would be a barrier but lately I'm realizing that the price difference might not be as much as I thought.

I've done some reading and I think I'm aware of the basic red flags when it comes to buying a decent English or Scottish gun; however, I could definitely benefit from the expertise of folks on this group. What should I look out for? Where should I look? Am I way off base in terms of price? School me...
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gjw
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:57 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 863
Location: NoDak

Hi, I'm a huge fan of Brit guns and I've found them to be the cats meow. It seems like you've done some homework, so no sense in going over old ground. The biggest issue IMO with Brit guns are the barrels. Is the gun in Proof, what is the wall thickness of the bbls (have they been honed etc), have they been monkeyed with etc. I would suggest that before you buy, I'd read/get the following:

https://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Guns-Collecting-Restoring-Shooting/dp/160239198X

https://www.amazon.com/Vintage-British-Shotguns-Shooting-Sportsman/dp/0892727748/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1471801597&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Vintage+british+shotguns+by+weiland

These two books cover it all.

If your looking for a 16b, it will be a bit more expensive than a 12b gun, but I will tell you that a 16b Brit gun is really something. A wonderful carry, great handling and a joy to hold and shoot.

I would suggest two dealers who have a very good reputation for quality guns and honesty:

http://www.vintagedoubles.com/

http://www.hillrodandgun.com/index.php

A 16b gun with be in that 5 3/4lb to 6 + lbs range and a 12b form around 6 1/4 to 6 3/4 lb range.

If you have any specific questions, please post them.

One thing for sure, you won't be sorry in getting a Brit gun!

Good Luck!

Greg

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Little Creek
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:31 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 21 Feb 2005
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Location: Anchorage, AK

Now may be the time to buy an Uggie...last chance for a new one.


http://www.bilozir.net/shotguns/ugartechea.htm

“Ugartechea (Spain) Stops Production - All Stock Guns 25% Off. Please contact us at fineguns@bilozir.net or 403.938.6066 for more information.”
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JonP
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 694
Location: MN

I appreciate English guns and craftsmanship, but I find them to be too expensive. The cachè of English guns is in my mind rather a marketing game.
I have bought fine used continental guns for far less. To each his own and I don't want to ruffle any feathers.
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gjw
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 863
Location: NoDak

Little Creek wrote:
Now may be the time to buy an Uggie...last chance for a new one.


http://www.bilozir.net/shotguns/ugartechea.htm

“Ugartechea (Spain) Stops Production - All Stock Guns 25% Off. Please contact us at fineguns@bilozir.net or 403.938.6066 for more information.”


Good price cut, but the drawback is the store is in Canada. I think the import fees won't help us here in the States save much, but our Canadian friends will be getting a good deal.

Best,

greg

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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:14 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Cheyenne, Wy

I hate to see Uggie quit making shotguns, they are, in my opinion, the best buy in SxS's.But there are a lot of them out there to choose from.

Dollar for dollar I would take an Uggie over MOST English doubles. Wink

Dale

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canvasback
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 684
Location: Ontario

gjw wrote:
Little Creek wrote:
Now may be the time to buy an Uggie...last chance for a new one.


http://www.bilozir.net/shotguns/ugartechea.htm

“Ugartechea (Spain) Stops Production - All Stock Guns 25% Off. Please contact us at fineguns@bilozir.net or 403.938.6066 for more information.”


Good price cut, but the drawback is the store is in Canada. I think the import fees won't help us here in the States save much, but our Canadian friends will be getting a good deal.

Best,

greg


I've sent a few down (and brought some up) for some reasonable amounts. In the range of $250 per gun plus a small percentage of purchase price. If Will's regular price is competitive with US sourced Uggies, the 25% off will more than cover the cost of importation.

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Lloyd3
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 1365
Location: Denver, Colorado

I own both English and Continental guns and while I like and use both, IMHO the English (& Scottish) guns are just a bit more refined in the areas of weight and balance.
The box-locks are where you can still find the bargains but, as has been mentioned above, you must do your homework. With any old British shotgun, you are buying barrels, so make darn sure you understand what that means.

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JNW
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN

English guns intrigue me. Those who really like them tout them as the ne plus ultra of shotguns. My main problem is I get to see very few English guns so I feel I'm simply not knowledgable enough to buy one. I think it would be very difficult to research, study, ask questions and then buy one shotgun and wind up with "the gun". Not being clever enough to store vast sums of money away I would have to buy on the bottom end of these guns and feel I could easily wind up with a problem child. So, no guns from the British Isles for me.
An acquaintance of mine did pick up a beaut of a Scottish 16 last year at the Great Northern. Not a boxlock, but a silly trigger plate gun. 30" barrels, straight stock, DT and nicely engraved. We looked at it hard and decided it was a bargain - only about $14,000. A new one would run around $50,000. He shot a bunch of wild birds with it last year. So, there are bargains out there.
The books and the dealers that Greg mentioned above are an excellent place to start.
Regards,
Jeff
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Gil S
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:31 am  Reply with quote
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Buy the gun and not the name. Over the past handful of years, the best value for the money in an English gun is a BLNE. Disabuse yourself of a refinished gun being of questionable value as gun owners in the UK would often send their guns to their smith for seasonal maintenance which on occasion included rebrowning of barrels, reblackening of furniture and wood touch up. This was and still is an acceptable practice in the UK and Europe. I have had good experiences buying from Hillrodandgun and Vintagedoubles. HillR&G does a lot of importing of Britguns. I bought a gun from Hill R&G that had recently been re-chambered to 70mm and had been re-proofed in England in 2009. Despite being a pre-war gun, the barrel's breech ends still showed uniform filing marks from when the gun was made and barrels fitted. Both purchases were 16's. Gil
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Gamekeeper
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:32 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Hampshire, England.

I used to work for Westley Richards ( barrel filer) English shotguns are mostly handmade and are of great quality but it only takes one careless or sloppy owner to turn it into junk.
As someone else said, look at the gun not the name.

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gjw
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
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Gil S wrote:
Buy the gun and not the name. Over the past handful of years, the best value for the money in an English gun is a BLNE. Disabuse yourself of a refinished gun being of questionable value as gun owners in the UK would often send their guns to their smith for seasonal maintenance which on occasion included rebrowning of barrels, reblackening of furniture and wood touch up. This was and still is an acceptable practice in the UK and Europe. I have had good experiences buying from Hillrodandgun and Vintagedoubles. HillR&G does a lot of importing of Britguns. I bought a gun from Hill R&G that had recently been re-chambered to 70mm and had been re-proofed in England in 2009. Despite being a pre-war gun, the barrel's breech ends still showed uniform filing marks from when the gun was made and barrels fitted. Both purchases were 16's. Gil


Well said!

I will admit I have a soft spot for HR&G, Charlies is an absolute joy to work with. His return policy is one of the best and he will deal. He'll answer about any question you may have on a gun and will send you as many pictures as you want. He's tops in my book.

Good Luck!

Greg

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NY16ga
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:34 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
Location: New York

Thanks everyone, this definitely gives me some things to think about. I think some reading and research is still in order but you guys have confirmed a few things for me so that helps. I am surprised to hear that Ugartechea is on the way out though. I might need to reach out to LCS to see what they still have in stock.
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CitoriFeather16
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:25 pm  Reply with quote
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[quote="gjw"]
Gil S wrote:
Buy the gun and not the name. Over the past handful of years, the best value for the money in an English gun is a BLNE. Disabuse yourself of a refinished gun being of questionable value as gun owners in the UK would often send their guns to their smith for seasonal maintenance which on occasion included rebrowning of barrels, reblackening of furniture and wood touch up. This was and still is an acceptable practice in the UK and Europe. I have had good experiences buying from Hillrodandgun and Vintagedoubles. HillR&G does a lot of importing of Britguns. I bought a gun from Hill R&G that had recently been re-chambered to 70mm and had been re-proofed in England in 2009. Despite being a pre-war gun, the barrel's breech ends still showed uniform filing marks from when the gun was made and barrels fitted. Both purchases were 16's. Gil


Well said!

I will admit I have a soft spot for HR&G, Charlies is an absolute joy to work with. His return policy is one of the best and he will deal. He'll answer about any question you may have on a gun and will send you as many pictures as you want. He's tops in my book.

Good Luck!

Greg[/quote

Greg nails it on both his posts. Buy from a reputable dealer and my one experience with Chasrlie was great! I have 2 English blne's and their are wands in the field. Thin wrist, light, splinter forearm and choked appropriately for upland birds. One is chambered for 2 1/2" but I reload and if you don't, RST is perfectly suited for old English guns!

Can't speak for Scottish guns but I drooled over a Joseph Harkom for for a year before I realized the import fee made it impractical. During the process I heard more than once a bad gun never came out of Scotland.

Good luck in your search!

Matt
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gjw
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 863
Location: NoDak

Hi, I have a 12b J. Harkom hammergun, an absolutlely wonderful gun, top shelf quality and a darn good shooter, one of my favorites!



Best,

Greg

PS if you enlarge the photo you can see the very fine engraving much better

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