16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

I'm a Californian and as many know, non tox shot is being phased in for all hunting and for me it's time to make the switch altogether now. I reload for my 16 gauge and have been loading a few batches of steel loads for testing. My 16 gauge is a modern Browning and it is going to be used for everything from doves and quail to preserve pheasant and decoy ducks.

I have two sons who are left handed, one has started hunting and the other will as well in a couple of years. I need and want more shotguns. I have one Browning BPS 16 gauge and love it, planning on getting the Upland Special as well in either 16 or 20 I also really like the Browning Citori white lighting and Sweet 16. Talk about a light carrying and great handling auto loader!

Am I nuts to go all in on 16 gauges and Brownings? Or would you seriously just switch over to 20 gauge under the non tox requirements? If so, why?

I like to keep the packing up and travel requirements as basic as possible. It's simply easier to keep one gauge of shells on hand and have the ability of everyone using the same thing. For me each trip would be either 20 or 16 gauge unless big pass shooting waterfowl is expected at which point the 12s get to come out again. I guess I would like to know if I can reload the 16 non tox to perform on par with three inch 20 gauge. I don't have a lot of experience with non tox yet.

I'll be experimenting with ITX and Hevi shot as well soon, which I think will open up the possibilities quite a bit for the 16 gauge. But I admit, I don't know as much as I wish I did. Some advice and opinions would be nice!

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3177 Location: NCWa

My first shotgun was a Browning Superposed 20 ga Magnum. When 1 1/4 oz lead loads were allowed it was almost equivalent to the 16 ga loads. the 20 ga is a very good shotgun, but the 16 ga supersedes it in all ballistic aspects as long as you handload. Given the ability to handload, I'd be "all in" for the 16. But then, this IS the 16 ga Society. Smile

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

High Shooter,
I've done a pretty good bit of studying on non-tox (HW13 and TSS) loading and how the ballistics and penetration compares to various steel loads, what pellet counts and sizes and speeds are required for various ducks and ranges. In various forums I've written some pretty extensive posts on all that. I got tired of trying to find stuff I wrote, so I went and copied my posts and put them all in one spot, so I can refer folks there for some quick answer, pretty much exactly what you're asking about. That and I don't have 30 internet trolls picking every sentence apart looking for anything they can critique Wink

My main interest is loading 20 ga steel and 20, 28 high density. But my first gun for 21 years was a 16ga mod12 I used for everything, so... well, I just sent a 410gr steel 16ga load in for ballistic pressure testing this week, so I'm interested in that.

Oh and I've got 2 boys 12/13 who are just starting duck hunting, and their subgauge needs drives a lot of my interests, one is left handed and my 8yo daughter will shoot left handed...so it sounds like I'm coming from a similar spot as you. I've been researching youth guns and left handed guns like crazy for months.

I write from a pretty data-driven and maybe more scientific analysis point than some, when looking at loads, what's needed to kill ducks etc., then collect as much empirical field results as I can to calibrate and validate it.

You might enjoy reading some of my writing on steel, HW, TSS in 16 and 20ga, I think it's right up your alley for what you're asking about.

Here's the link: https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/

For a short answer: max published 16ga steel hand load is 7/8oz. I've heard of successful 1oz @ 1500fps loads, but haven't seen any pressure data sheet on it. I'm working my way up there hopefully. For comparison, the max published 20ga 3" hand load is 420gr, just under 1oz, and I have seen pressure sheets on a full 1oz handload at 1485 fps, and shoot that. I can stuff about 445gr of steel #3 into a PT1680 16ga wad, so it might be possible to get 1oz or slightly more, and beat the 20g. Since no one is doing much work there it costs a bit to do.
-- If you handload, they are probably functionally equivalent. If you want to be able to buy commercial steel, the 20ga is superior. And for finding a Youth gun, the 20ga is by far the better choice. I love my 16ga, but for kids I'd go 20, and just did-- purchased Wby SA08 compact this week for 2nd son, Youth duck season TOMORROW! Wink

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

Lots of interesting information there Dave. I read over most of it and will mull it over. Yes, I also bought a youth 20 gauge Remington 870. It will fit for a season or two for each boy, at which point their LOP will be ready for adult size. It's a good reason to start planning now. Among all the other expenses, priorities need to be made you know?

I'm sure for the smaller game birds both are more than sufficient. The 16 gauge should pattern better with larger shot and payloads, I'll probably need to pattern both to satisfy my curiosity. I would like to know if there is a practical improvement in the larger bore. But if my marksmanship between shot types can handle it, I think higher density shot is the direction I'll take for the lower volume shooting at bigger birds with the 16 or 20 gauges. But still, I'm interested in seeing the results of your 420 grain load of #3 steel. Later today I'm going to try stuffing that much #4 steel in both kinds of steel rated shot cups just to see if I can make it fit!

I know Federal fits 15/16 oz of 2 steel in their purple hulls, I think we need more published data and components.

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

Indeed, the CSD-16 wad does hold a bit more than 420 grains of #4 steel shot! And yes, it looks like it would be "stuffed" in the shell. The other wad topped out at about 404 grains. I may choose to work with this 420 grain payload and get some pressure testing done then pattern them against various 382 grain loads. I may try some with buffering compound too. By the time I'm finished with this I could have invested in a new 20 gauge! Laughing

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

High Shooter,
retry the wad capacities while pressing down on the top of the shot and jiggling the shell-- I don't think you got a good "pack" on the vp80, it holds more than the CSD16 every time for me.

The amount you can fit in the wad is increased hugely by applying downward pressure and vibrating so that the shot gets into hexagonal closepack. For example, I was testing 2 nights ago how BPI makes all those 3/4oz CSD20 loads without listing many, if any, filler wads. Turns out if you just dump in 340gr or so of #4 it fits to the rim. BUT-- I can fit 400 gr in there with no problem and all pellets only 1/2 pellet above the wad rim, if I just press down and tap tap tap.

Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 398 Location: Rochester, MN

I have owned a 16 gauge for about 5 years. I have been reloading for it for at least 4 years. I hunt mostly waterfowl and use strictly steel shot for all my bird and small game hunting.

I load number 50204 from this source using the VP80 wad.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/VP80%20data.pdf

It is a 7/8 oz load of shot with a published velocity of about 1550 fps. I have no difficulty killing ducks, pheasants, and rabbits using this load. I load #4 steel for teal, #3, #2, and #1 steel for ducks. I have used #3 add #2 steel for pheasants and rabbits. I have killed geese with this load too using #1 steel.

This load patterns very well in light modified or modified chokes in my two guns and I do not feel at all handicapped shooting along side other hunters with 12 gauge guns. Last year on our opening day, I limited out with 6 ducks using 14 shots. I then lent my gun to another hunter who had used all of his 25 rounds of ammo allowed in a managed area hunt.

Another good source of 16 gauge steel ammo is Sporting Ammo 2.

http://www.sportingammo2.com/steel-shot-shells

Their 16 gauge 15/16 oz of #3 steel out performs any other commercial steel offering that I have tried.

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 287 Location: missouri

16 ga 1 1/4 oz #6 Hevishot 40 yards published BPI load. To much for ducks had to reduce down to 1 1/8 oz meat grinder if you didn't, ruined a few Teal with this load.
Enough said
[URL=http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/Joe_Speroni/media/IMG_0041_zpszkrnrcmn.jpg.html]

[/URL]

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

Just got a pressure test back for 16ga, 410gr, Herters hulls.
Came in slightly overpressure at 11,777psi (SAAMI Max Avg Pressure is 11,500psi). 1476fps. Just 6 datapoints and had one wierd high one at 13,730 which drove it up. So without that one high point, MAP would be 11384 psi and 1467fps.

Based on my results, I expect 1/2gr less powder to bring it in below MAP and at around 1465 fps.

I'll post about it somewhere else in more detail; however, for this thread, it's pertinent to say that I ALSO got back a 20ga test load, a full 1oz 437.5gr #3 steel, at 1422fps and 11330fps. Plus another datapoint same load, slightly more powder, at 12,207psi so juuust over SAAMI, and at 1453fps. Splitting the two, I'd expect 1440fps and 11,800 for what I'm settling on.

So the original question was 16ga vs. 20ga 3", non-tox/steel. So far, at the extreme top edge of "unpublished handloading w/ pressure tests" the 20ga is winning by just 40gr of pellets, 14 or so #3s.

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 287 Location: missouri

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

Looks to me that as things stand the 16 and 20 gauge comparisons for non tox are splitting hairs unfortunately. I'll try the fast 7/8 ounce loads of 4 shot I loaded for now if preserve pheasant or small ducks are the target. But ultimately, If bigger birds are expected at moderate ranges and I want to carry a sub gauge instead of a twelve, I might better just use heavier types of shot which will do these gauges justice. I'm glad to see this development happening here on this forum. I may order some 4 Bismuth, ITX and hevishot soon and contribute to the effort. But it sure was convenient to walk into the local gun shop yesterday and find Kent Bismuth 1oz #5s in 20 gauge. I bought a few boxes for my 13 year old. That was easy, but the 16 gauge is now even more fun with loading effort! Laughing

1st off , thanx tp FN & 16WTF(Dave also) for pursuing these loads . The more of them the better off we all are ... an anomaly that I fell on many yrs ago was that the 12ga steel sucked , but the 20ga 7's killed ducks well and dead ! Did it just to be able to take my 1912 M12 ... There are some really good duck combos for each gauge , but finding them can be a bitch ! I read an older article by Tom Roster (not a fan) where he developed a 28ga Hevi load . 1400 fps . When I got the primers finally , and patterned them (32yds) , holy smokes . Would kill a pickup at 40yds . Have been wanting to pursue some 16 BP loads , but have proceeded slowly just because of their controversies ! My buddy Woodie , has had some good results with the 20ga bombs , but they are really hard to find ... Over the yrs , would pick a so so Bizz type load over a steel , and can see some real advantage to hevi type in the small ga's ... ps : BP has some 16 RST BIZZ loads in this weeks on-line sale flier .

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

16gawaterfowler, I've been looking for federal 16ga for weeks now. Drove to cabelas and basspro in phx and nothing. Was just in Memphis yesterday at bass pro and again no Feds.

Meanwhile, I'd like to shoot that load yore talking about but I need to see a pressure sheet before shooting something new and at top end of steel exceeding published. It's a 1935 or 6 mod12, can't r call which right now, so I need to be a bit cautious.

Pm me a copy of the pressure test of your load and I'll send u a copy of this one. Honestly it's good as is for you I'd think and it's nice to have a herters data point.