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Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

I was considering how or where to report these results. My original intent had been to get them included in the Yahoo group spreadsheets (not LPG group). I dislike posting long detailed info or studies in a straight forum now, because there's always some internet troll who argues, ruins the thread, acts like a child, or doesn't like what you're doing after reading 2 seconds worth and decides to continuously let you know...
However, after seeing how fn16ga reported his ITX10 results here, and that a lot of folks here found got good use from that thread as well as the genteel character of folks here on 16ga usually, I decided to follow suite.

For the complete writeup, I already have it with pictures etc. on my blog, so won't retype it all here. If interested, you can read if you want details there:

https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/tested-16ga-410gr-steel-shot-overpressure/

Here's a summary:

I sent in to Precision Reloading the following load:
Hull: Herters (cheddite) once-fired
Primer: cheddite 209 (CX2000, black tops, lot#41/4/148
Powder: Alliant Steel, lot #29, 27.5 gr
Wad: PT1680 (VP80), 3 slits to vents, mica-dusted
Filler: 0.21" foam disc (white meat tray) with 3-mil mylar disc on top to prevent shot embedding
Shot: 410 gr of #3 steel shot from BPI
Crimp: 6-pt Fold, crimp depth exactly 0.055" measured from rim to top of fold petals at edge

Results: 1476 fps, but slightly over SAAMI MAP at 11,777.

Dave

Thank you for sharing, is helpful and will be of even greater value
in the near future
Mike

Member Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Posts: 2169 Location: Florida

Dave , thats a good looking steel load . Thanks for sharing .

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

I can't believe it! I just sent you a PM, part of which was inquiring upon this load. I didn't bother to check the board first. Thanks again for all the effort! Looks very promising to me!

On another note, I notice you chose to forego the buffer, and for good reason to keep pressures down. But I am curious to know how much buffer helps the pattern. I'll be working on that answer myself here shortly with some loads of my own. Do others here notice a difference between buffered and unbuffered steel? Could 7/8th ounce actually outpattern a 15/16th. I don't know.

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

This is a topic of conversation often over at DuckHuntingChat, where it's all about steel loads and patterns.

I believe from all my reading, which is a lot over there, that the consensus from guys that actually pattern their loads is that buffer doesn't help. I have read numerous reports from guys testing both buffered and unbuffered loads and seeing no pattern gain.

In steel shot, the shot is essentially not deformable during firing due to it's hardness. The buffer used in lead loads is there to keep the soft lead from deforming and going out of round and thus not flying true, thus poor patterns. There's no such need with steel.

There was some discussion and some writing about the buffer aiding the fluidic properties of the shotstring through the choke... nothing scientific I've read, or supported by published pressure results.

The common agreement is that buffer is merely an extra profit center for reloading suppliers and provides no steel shot benefit; none of the guys I actually believe pattern their shells use it. I've got a bunch of it, tested it in 2 loads now, saw no difference, don't use it now.

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 287 Location: missouri

Very nice you confirmed what I have been experiencing with the Cheddite hulls also they run higher pressures than the Federal hulls do. Probably the reason BPI had that load listed a 7/8 oz in the first place you wouldn't think 28 grains of shot would make that big a difference but it does, which also means the 7/8 oz load is at or near acceptable pressures. I 've used the 7/8 oz load in the field with Cheddite hulls and it works fine, for heavier loads the Federal hulls are only way to go.
On the buffer It makes little to no difference in patterning, the only thing it does is raise pressures which in turn gives you slower loads, makes a mess and makes BPI profit. I've test buffered loads in 10 12 and 16 gauge and saw no appreciable difference in patterns.

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

I loaded four 7/8 th ounce boxes with buffer, several without, I haven't patterned them on a board yet. I don't like taking the extra time adding buffer that's for sure. I won't miss it. The added payload of relatively fast 15/16 ounce loads would be nice. I'll be buying some Federals to supplement my Cheddite supply of hulls in anticipation.

I believe I will also plan to load a few other steel loads, switching out a few components for testing later, probably early next year. The results will help me to decide if I wish to invest in the new Browning A5 16 gauge. For some reason, a good 15/16 ounce load of steel shot just makes me feel better about it in relation to the 20 gauge competition. If I need more than that, I would move up a gauge instead.

The reason I really want to see good loads of steel work is because I want to use the same medium at similar speeds as often as possible. I'm concerned that switching between hevi and steel will negatively effect my actual hit rate. I'm not going to shoot hevi at doves and quail! Could be over thinking it though. Laughing

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

16GAWF (joe), did you have any info on using a slower powder for the asteel? I seem to recall you maybe were looking?

Asteel is great for 12ga, but as the surface area of the wad gets smaller in smaller gauges, the powder has to get progressively slower to launch these max payloads. In 20ga and 28ga, the best speeds without going overpressure are being attained with slower Lilgun powder. I don't see a reason why it might not work with the 16ga also, particularly with the lower limiting SAAMI pressure of 11,500psi.

I think I remember you posting they said it might not be super consistant at lower temps; for me, 32F and above would be the whole spectrum though, so maybe a player for me personally?

Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Southern California

Dave, your load with Asteel was so close to SAAMI pressure a gun in good modern condition could almost taste it. I wouldn't abandon what was already achieved here. Reducing a grain of powder, trying a Federal hull, maybe even trying a CSD 16 wad might do the trick. It doesn't have to be blistering fast either, to my mind this excercize would be most useful for relatively large shot sizes like 1,2,3 and 4. It's a 40 +/- yard gun with steel at best no matter what. I notice the CSD wads don't fit as tightly as the vp1680. Sure, we don't want to push that wad too fast, but it might help keep the pressure in check. I doubt Longshot, Unique or HS6 will work in this application, maybe Blue Dot. But anything within the pressure limit going over 1350 fps would make me happy. I want a nice dense cloud of large duck and pheasant steel shot at moderate range, that's all.

I picked up a flat of Federals today. I've got some sporting clays to shoot. Don't get me wrong, I don't know much, especially about steel shot. I'm a wide eyed an eager Boy Scout about this. There is a need for non tox load development here, even if it's a small need.

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

High Shooter,
Indeed, I absolutely expect that a half grain reduction in powder to 27.0 would get this load under SAAMI MAP, and deliver about 1455 fps. Whole grain if you're nervous. And in a new gun like this A5, I personally would probably shoot the load as is. Those aren't things I can "say with certainty" though without a test Wink

In 410gr regime, I would shoot #3 shot with this. #2 needs more pellets than this delivers.
BUT, I'll tell you where I'm going with this:
1. 410gr #3 steel within SAAMI, that's 142 pellets-- good for large/med ducks
2. 410gr total, #3 steel MIXED with #9.5 TSS or HW13#6 shot sufficient to bring total pellet counts to 180 or so. Pressure will decrease due to denser materials reducing total volume in shotcup.
3. Lower volumes in shotcup will reduce pressures, thus allowing MORE STEEL SHOT bring volume back up to max and pressures up to SAAMI limit in a bit of a recursive limit. This will lead to something roughly:
>>> 437.5 gr load total, #2 shot mixed with HW13#6 or TSS for 160 pellets total, filling shotcup and within saami.

At this point, with lower pressures that result from admixing denser materials, I can actually use this load just tested "as is" for moving forward with duplexing tests, in fact it's GOOD that it's slightly high as I won't have to "work back up to the limit" as much when pressure drops. I'd really like to have a 1500fps base steel load to start with, but that's probably achievable once duplexed if I don't increase total payload to use up the freed up pressure from increased density.

The marginal replacement of some steel in a good, high payload shell, will allow increases in pellet count with reduced pressures, thus allowing larger pellet sizes (#2) mixed with ballistically superior but smaller pellets, giving an increased range/pellet count shell than possible now.

Yeah, it's the same duplex concept that HeviMetal uses, except done correctly ballistically and using the vastly superior HW13 or TSS shot which is round, consistent, real pellet counts and ranges, and no marketing department lying to me Wink

My calculations for the required mixes to give the pellet counts desired give around $0.40- $0.60 per shell or so, depending.

End goal is a range of 16ga mixture shells delivering the entire ballistic/range/penetration results from 410gr #4 steel up to any equivalent 3.5" 12ga steel loading. Certainly #2, #1, and #B shot at 1-1/4oz levels are already achievable with this current load result.

For example:
340gr #2 steel with 70gr TSS #9.5 gives 166 total pellets.
Per KPY ballists, 1000'msl 32F 1475fps, 1.5" ballistic gel penetration, 47.0 yards for the #2 steel and 65 yards for the TSS#9.5. With TSS, an 85% pattern isn't too hard, giving 141 pellets in pattern at 40 yards, good for small ducks even. I'd expect I could do that mix right now in the test load, and get less than 11,000psi, based on the duplex results from Hawglips. Of course you'd send in for testing. Total cost of that load is $0.76 per shell. That's the same pellets as a 1-3/8oz #2 load. #B steel ballistically matches the 9.5TSS, so you could of course use #1 or #B instead.

Hrmm, this may not be the venue for all this, got carried away Wink

Not sure too many folks here follow TSS or would be accepting of such a load. The proof is in the pattern of course, which is yet to come.

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 287 Location: missouri

Joined: 28 Aug 2014 Posts: 924 Location: Eastern Tennessee

This is great work. I think I will load up some 27 grain versions at some point and give them a run on the patterning board. It would be great news if the new A5 will cycle with these 15/16 high velocity loads.

Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 398 Location: Rochester, MN

Before I started reloading my own steel for 16 gauge (7/8 oz @1550 fps), I used Sporting Ammo 15/16 oz #3 sreel @1400 fps.

I saw no observable difference in performance.

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

Going back a bit in this thread buffer was mentioned.

The only reason buffer is used in steel (and other hard pellet materials) loads is to stop pellets from rubbing through the wad and scoring the barrel. There is a lot of salesmanship BS saying otherwise but the patterning you have done showing no increase in pattern density is spot on.