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<  16ga. Guns  ~  Are Winchester model 21 shotguns really worth the money?
Dannyboy175
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:15 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 162
Location: York, PA

I started searching for options for a 16 gauge SxS a few weeks ago. One of my hang ups or limitations is that I really don't like double triggers. I know that these are the standard for SxS shotguns and there is actually some meaningful functionality to it. Lets just say that I'm pretty stubborn and will not likely change my opinion anytime soon.

One of the SxS guns that I found that has a great deal of single trigger versions out there is the Winchester model 21. Not having been a student of SxS guns, when I first saw one I wasn't aware that it had any particular status as a prized collector gun or highly valued game getter or clay buster. The little research I did so far indicates that the 21 was created by Winchester/Olin to be the strongest, most well built shotguns of its time. This seems to be the reputation. The guns I've seen for sale from on-line retailers are typically not elaborately detailed (with exceptions), but do seem to be well maintained and have retained the beauty of the guns clean, understated character.

Given that the model 21 fits my criteria of having 16 gauge single trigger guns available, I would like to consider it. The problem is that they are about twice as expensive as a similarly appointed and well maintained SxS from various other makers. One theory I've read about why they are expensive is because the Winchester brand makes it more collectable. If this is the case, then I guess they will always be collectable and will hold their value. My goal isn't to have guns in a safe that increase in value. My goal is to have guns that I enjoy shooting/hunting, and ideally should offer some sort of unique character. I don't need a Cadillac, but don't want the same model T that everyone else has.

For those of you that own or have used the model 21, what are your thoughts? Do you enjoy shooting, hunting with it more than other SxS guns? If you could buy two new shotguns for the price of one model 21, why would you choose the 21?

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Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen
Browning Citori Superlite Feather 16 ga.
Merkel 1620 (straight stock and single trigger)
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slowpokebill
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:56 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 163
Location: Utah

The Model 21 is collectable and a lot of that is related to it being made by Winchester. Without question as the condition nears minty the price can rise rapidly. The market for "shooter grade" Model 21s is flat to very soft. Prices have been flat for at least 5 or 6 years.

That may be good for you as the buyer. The downside is a lot of Model 21 owners want top of the market price for their less than top of the market condition gun. That applies to many dealers, some that have had the same shotgun in their inventory for years.

Another thing with 21s and most collectable guns is before playing in that market you had better really know what your looking at. Can you spot a refinished or altered Model 21. How do you tell if it is and honest gun or one that has been messed with or upgraded. One can get really burned playing this game. Proceed with extreme caution.

Then their is my opinion of the 21. It is nice overbuilt shotgun. They tend to be heavy and in my opinion kind of clunky in their handling. Sorry 21 guys but it is shotgun that has just never impressed me...of course that is just this one guys opinion ... so take it for what it is worth.
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df
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 962
Location: Minnesota

I am not intimately familiar with the Model 21, but have handled a few. They are nice but I would not pay what they are selling for.
Six months ago, I found a Merkel 147E single trigger in 16 gab. It was in like new condition, possibly unfired. I got it for $3800 and think I stole it.
You might want to look at that brand for a ST 16 ga SxS.
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JNW
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:14 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Model 21s. Hmmmm. I have to be careful as I run with a 21 crowd. They are nice guns. If in proper order they are very reliable and you can shoot the snot out of them. Remember, we're talking guns that are 60 to 80 years old and some of them have been messed with. A 16 gauge can vary from 6.5 to just under 8 pounds. The stock dimensions vary as they could be ordered with any dimensions you wanted. The longer the barrels the more money they're worth. Wish I liked and could shoot 26" barrels. Like Bill said, if you're going to buy a 21 you better know your stuff. You can find bargains for $3,500 and lemons for $10,000. Because of the collector factor you have to really think about altering one, and I modify guns I shoot to work for me. If you want a hunting gun I'd look at Berettas or a German gun. A lighter American gun like an AH Fox with a Miller single trigger would be a wonderful gun and you can still have a Miller trigger installed. Figure out what kind of guns you like, how much you want to spend and start looking at guns - lots of guns. Tough to do your research and buy the perfect gun with your first purchase. I owned only one SxS for awhile. That was a long time ago.
Regards,
Jeff
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BigCreekMI
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:35 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 27 Dec 2005
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Location: Great Lakes

I also shoot with some M21 fans & have a 20, a 16 and a 12Ga and have owned other 21's over the years. I like them. If well spent $ is the controlling factor, IMO it is hard to beat a CSM RBL.

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A Springer Spaniel, a 6# double and a fair day to hunt.
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cowdoc87
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:36 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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Location: Kelso, Tennessee

I've had a few over the years, and they are overbuilt, reliable, fairly plain, usually heavier than most of their contemporaries, and don't kill stuff any deader than a savage/fox b model, of which you can buy ten of them for one model 21. I have one now- made in the late 30's with 30 inch barrels, which is pretty rare for a 16- and doubt I'd ever sell it, but I don't shoot it particularly well. I'd say a lot of their value has to do with their collectibility - limited production Winchester - but there's nothing wrong with that. Kinda like asking if a '66 camaro is worth it Smile

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i reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.
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XVIgauge
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:43 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 333
Location: Central Florida

Yes, the M21's are nice guns but do tend to run a little on the heavy side, at least for me. I believe that the late great Jack O'Conner had more to do with their popularity than anything else. I remember reading one of his books in the chapter on skeet shooting, he praised the M21 as being probably the best choice in a skeet gun. He also said that it should be short and fast handling with nothing over 26" barrels. Interesting at how trends change.
xvigauge

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Charlie16ga
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 924
Location: Eastern Tennessee

This conversation kinds of goes down a vein of thought I have had. There are 2 types of collectors.

Type 1: They collect to have and use. Just fun knowing everyday I can choose from a list of options. This collector usually has a vast range of values/cost in their "collection of tools". Take me, I probably would be considered this type of buyer. I own just about every 16 gauge that suits my fancy (okay so a German made o/u and a new A5 are kind of still calling to me). None of them are guns I would be afraid to shoot. I never consider resale value as a factor of buying or keeping the gun. This type might collect a brand or a gauge or even a type of action.

Type 2: They collect for resale value or artistic value. This collector usually has a nice set of well made, high valued museum quality pieces. This collector is are pushed to consider selling one of his guns when the market value spikes.

Just my thoughts of course but I basically see collectors this way. Just because I might own a Merkel or Simpson o/u doesn't make me a type 2, just a guy that wants another tool.

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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:27 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3172
Location: NCWa

First- Just being a Winchester doesn't have a great deal to do with the price; A model 24 can be purchased for a few hundred $$.
The Model 21 was designed to be the strongest SxS at the time or any time. Olin did a series of test where they obtained all sorts of SxS guns and proceeded to shoot proof+ loads in them until they cam apart. The actual results weren't released but it noted that the 21 exceeded the last survivor by hundreds of rounds, then was checked for loosening and the gun was still factory tight.
There are basically three groupings of 21s. Those that have been safe queens or have been left in the factory box- these are the high priced guns that never see the light of dawn in a duck blind. the second group are those that either have factory engraving or after market engraving by a "name" metal worker or gun maker. If you're careful with these you can hunt with them, but don't use it as a hammer. The third group is the most common- the honest hunters that have seen a lot of use, since most are well over 50 years old. Due to their construction and being owned by people that appreciated something well made, they have generally been well cared for. These are the guns that would be moderately priced and have potential to be a lifelong hunting companion.
As for weight- checking the weights of some guns that I have weighed over the years- a couple 16 ga 21s weighed within an ounce of a #1 frame Parker @ 6# 11 oz. A 12 ga 3" mag 21 weighed 7# 11 oz, less than a Merkel 201(O/U) and about the same as Parker 12ga #1.5 frame. So while the 21 won't be competing with the Parker 0 frames or the Aluminum framed feather guns, they fall in with the "standard" weight guns and have a significant advantage in strength.
One additional advantage of the 21 is the longer radius between the breech face and the rotation axis. Opening the action and ejecting empties provides greater access for the fresh shells to be loaded.
So you pays your money and you takes your choice- as you said, both cars will get you were you want to go, it's how they get your there.
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Dannyboy175
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 162
Location: York, PA

Thanks for all of the replies. This all was very helpful. I would put myself in the collector of a wide range of useful guns, and I would only be looking for the "honest hunter" type of gun. Based upon this, I would stay away from a 21 unless I find a deal that is too good to pass up.

Someone mentioned replacing double triggers with a Miller single trigger. I had wondered if there was a way to send a gun back to the mfg to have the double trigger swapped for a single, but I had not researched this possibility. Looking at the Miller website, they offer standard retrofits for Parker Brothers, A.H. Fox, Ithaca NID and L.C. Smith shotguns. This would open up a whole lot of SxS shotguns for me. The only problem is that the price of this starts at $1250. I may still have to limit my search for guns that already have single triggers.

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Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen
Browning Citori Superlite Feather 16 ga.
Merkel 1620 (straight stock and single trigger)
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BigCreekMI
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:49 pm  Reply with quote
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You should give a nice SxS with good double triggers a try. Problem with more common "lesser" guns is that triggers are often terrible. Suggest you try it on Sporting Clays. SC "encourages" you to choose best barrel for shot and in short order you will be smoothly moving between the barrels with ease. I ordered my 28 & 16Ga RBL guns with DT's after using the DT's on one of my 21's.

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A Springer Spaniel, a 6# double and a fair day to hunt.
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cowdoc87
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:07 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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One drawback to model 21s is that most are single triggers Smile though the mechanism for switching barrels is relatively accessible, I've never attempted it in the heat of a rising bird.

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i reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.
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Gil S
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:52 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 04 Mar 2008
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Location: Lowcountry Ga.

Ok, so you are entrenched about not using double triggers, an entrenchment that for most is usually cured on a barn burner of one or two dove hunts. That is your perogative. You have effectively eliminated 99% of classic, handmade, lightweight field 16 gauge guns from England, Scotland, France, Belgium, Germany, and yes, the U.S.A. many of which are but a fraction of the cost of an M21. Your choices have narrowed to Winchesters and apparently Merkels, both compartively expensive guns. You have another option. Forget the 16 and look at the single-triggered BSS and SKB's, either badged as Ithaca or SKB, in 20 gauge. These are tough, well-made and reliable single triggered guns at a fraction of the cost of a M21. They are heavier than a pre-war English BLNE, but usually less costly, but not always. Much is made of the toughness of the overbuilt M21 surviving hundreds of proof loads after other lighter guns have failed. However, had the proof loads been fired from a person's shoulder rather than a mechanical device, the shooter's shoulder and/or dental work would have failed after a few loads. We don't shoot those loads in the field. As has been said, in the field, we don't need heavy tanks when a nimble, lighter sports car of a gun would be better and more fun to carry. Gil
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Beagleman
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:42 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 280
Location: Clemson

A model 21 is as durable sxs American made ever made. Do they fit everyone? No. Do they hold there value? Yes.
In a different time and a different life, I had the12-16-20 in mod 21. They were quality guns. I shot them very little mainly due to the fact they were worth so much money. Eventually, someone came along that thought more of them than I did and they had a new home. If money is no object, you can't go wrong with a 21.

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steve f
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:01 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 02 Nov 2015
Posts: 147
Location: N. Georgia

Never cared for them myself. Then I ran into an old guy trying to sell a 16ga Tournament Skeet model in a gun store, gun was from the early 30s. It had a straight stock and a slim beavertail. Wow, was that a great handling gun and the wood was very highly figured. There was some fairly severe rust damage at one spot on a barrel and one spot on the receiver. Nonetheless, I've kicked myself for not buying the gun.
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