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| < 16ga. Guns ~ What O/U to get? |
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 Posted:
Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:59 pm
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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| WyoChukar wrote: |
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For the money on that Browning I would go looking for a F.A.I.R. Rizzini... The fit and workmanship on the Rizzini is better than the Browning though.
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I'd be careful making such a general statement like this. The quality and workmanship of Italian made F.A.I.R. O/U models have varied up and down quite a bit over the years. It depends quite a bit on the contract, the importer, and just who manufactured the sub-assemblies of the guns. There have been several over the years.
Most affordable Italian made imports are assembled from parts sub-contracted out to specialty shops like barrel manufacturers, frame manufacturers, and various parts made by other types of privately owned machine shops. There have been many different hands involved. Some of the resulting guns have looked to be fairly decent (no pun intended), but some have not.
I'd be especially careful to closely look at the barrel assemblies on any of them. Some appear to be well regulated and some don't. So getting an accurate shooting F.A.I.R. O/U may depend on one's ability to judge them in this regard. Getting an inaccurate set of barrels fixed is at best very difficult and expensive even if the warranty is still current. Most of the warranties have expired long ago and have not been transferable to a 2nd owner.
There have been only one manufacturer and one importer of the Browning Citori. By and large, fit and finish of the Browning 16 ga. Citori models have remained pretty consistent over the years and look to be very good in my experience having owned a number of them made from 1988 through 2002. I've also never seen or shot an inaccurate one. Apparently, Miroku had already worked out an accurate and dependable barrel assembly technique by 1988 when they started making the 16 ga models.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not bad mouthing all F.A.I.R. O/U models. A good one should be a joy to own and shoot. All I'm saying is be careful to inspect and compare each one before plunking one's money down. Of course, this is a wise thing when buying any gun. |
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:10 pm
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Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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I have a Citori Lightning with 28" barrels. It handles really nice weighs in at 6 lbs. 15 oz. and it is easy on the shoulder with 1 oz. loads at 1,300 FPS. I even shoot a little Sporting with it.
What's not to like. |
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Mark |
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:38 pm
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Member
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 398
Location: S.E. Wisconsin
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| I just picked up a used Merkel 201e for less than the price of a new Citori and can tell you it's a sweet shotgun. 28" barrels and weighs in under 6 1/4#'s |
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"It's a good day for something" |
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:53 pm
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| Both Merkel and Browning Citoris are great shotguns. I've owned exactly two of each. Neither Citori fit me and tended to bite my cheek. Not the guns' fault. My first Merkel was more of the same and unusually high-combed. This last Merkel fit, but it was a combination of short and light that always draws me in and then kills me with inconsistency, and the writing was on the wall so I got out of it. I'm currently exploring other options. |
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:57 pm
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Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy
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| Interesting bit about the F.A.I.R. guns. I was unaware that the manufacture varied so much. That's a good way to doom a product line. |
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Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter... |
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:54 am
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 694
Location: MN
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| Its possible to find a very nice gun from Belgium Liege) or France (St. Etienne). I have one in 20 gauge and it is a wand...super little grouse gun. The Belgian Browning may not have offred a 16 gauge but other makers did. And there is a world of French gun makers about which we say little. |
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Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:06 am
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Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 87
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Kevin:
In your first post you said you mostly hunt pheasants. You should think about the grip you prefer for upland. I personally like a straight stock or round knob grip for an upland OU. They allow me to correct my hand position as I am mounting the gun for a fast shot. The superlight Citori fits the bill for me.
Cass |
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:15 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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| WyoChukar wrote: |
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Interesting bit about the F.A.I.R. guns. I was unaware that the manufacture varied so much. That's a good way to doom a product line.
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As far as I know, there are only two Italian shotgun manufacturers that are vertically integrated (almost everything is done in house). They are Beretta, which mass produces it's shotguns in house, and Perazzi which manufactures all sub-assemblies in house and then fits them together one gun at a time to very tight tolerances. All Perazzi barrel assemblies are checked and tested individually for regulation and accuracy. Any barrel assemblies which do not meet the tight specs and cannot be properly corrected are rejected and destroyed. There may also be a few more higher end specialty Italian gun makers that also carefully craft and build their guns in house one at a time, but I'm not aware of these brand names.
All other affordable mass produced O/U and SxS Italian brand shotguns are products of a cottage industry set up. The sub-assemblies are sub-contracted out and then the guns are assembled and completed either in house or by contracted assembly plants that fit the parts together and finish the guns to spec for the different name brands.
This is why many of the affordable mass produced Italian brands are made up of sub-assemblies like frames which closely resemble each other. Most of the frames are generically made by one or two manufacturers and are sold industry wide. The same goes for most of the barrel assemblies and the wood.
The resulting tolerances of the contracted out sub-assemblies and the completed guns can vary quite a bit. QC/QA is much harder to control in a cottage industry than in a vertically integrated company.
For the most part, Miroku is also a vertically integrated company. This is why the company has been so successful in maintaining the tolerances and consistent quality of it's finished guns under it's own brand name and for US importers Like Browning and Charles Daly over the years. Miroku has continued to improve their manufacturing methods and techniques ever since the company was formed in the 1950's. So the quality and accuracy of their guns has steadily improved by and large.
Out of my own experience and having owned and shot quite a few Charles Daly and Browning Citori O/U shotguns made by Miroku since the 1960's (1970's for the Browning Citori models), that the Citori shotgun barrel assemblies manufactured after the mid-1980's are generally better regulated and more consistently accurate than those made prior to that time. There were a few glitches in the early 1990's in this respect. Some of the first 12 gauge Invecta Plus O/U barrels were inaccurately assembled and regulated. Some of the smaller sub gauge guns had barrel assemblies which were inaccurate until about 1994. After this time, the problems appear to have been solved.
But the accuracy glitches in the barrel manufacturing process seem to never have happened to the 16 gauge models. It may be because the 16 gauge O/U barrel assemblies have all had only standard Invecta chokes since they were first offered in 1987 and have also been manufactured in much smaller lots. But I can't say for sure here. All I know from my own experience is that it appears to be true. |
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:50 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2168
Location: Florida
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| Quote: |
All other affordable mass produced O/U and SxS Italian brand shotguns are products of a cottage industry set up. The sub-assemblies are sub-contracted out and then the guns are assembled and completed either in house or by contracted assembly plants that fit the parts together and finish the guns to spec for the different name brands.
This is why many of the affordable mass produced Italian brands are made up of sub-assemblies like frames which closely resemble each other. Most of the frames are generically made by one or two manufacturers and are sold industry wide. The same goes for most of the barrel assemblies and the wood.
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Just curious , where does one find all this information ? |
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:31 pm
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Where's Dale when we need him?  |
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:50 pm
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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Research, hands on comparison over the years, and common sense. The manufacturing history of Beretta and Perazzi are readily available. You can contact them for this info. They will be proud to fill you in.
I also suggest that you invest the time to visually inspect as many affordable class Italian made O/U guns made from the 1960's on as you can. Look carefully at the frames of the various brands like Marocchi, F.A.I.R, Rizzini, Pedersoli, Etc. I'm sure you will see the very close resemblances of these frames in general. Compare the varying fit, finish, and quality of the barrel assemblies of all of them. Inspect the bores for straightness end to end and how well the two bores are matched and mated. Carefully examine how the barrels fit the frames. Look carefully at the interior working surfaces, and how the guns lock up. That should tell you quite a bit.
Once you learn to get past the cosmetic styling of the various brands, I'm sure you will see the close similarities between all of them. It's not coincidence. Good luck.
PS:
FYI, I purchased a couple of the first Invecta Plus 12 ga trap and sporting clays models shortly after they hit the market in the 1990's. I had to return a Grade I 30" O/U trap model and a Grade III O/U 30" SC model to Browning due to the poor barrel regulation and the inaccuracy of both guns.
It was a real hassle and an extended battle to prove to Browning that the problem existed, but I got it done by submitting a complete set of test targets showing the unregulated POI of the two barrels of each gun and refusing to take no for an answer.
Both barrel assemblies shot their respective pattrern centers about 8 to 9 inches apart at 30 yards which is way out of spec and totally unacceptable. After several months of back and forth, Browning agreed that the SC gun was obviously out of spec. They had the SC model barrel replaced with an upgraded, ported barrel assembly which proved to be very well regulated and which shot both pattern centers to the same POI within an inch of each other.
After two years of back and forth, and after the Grade I trap gun was misplaced and lost by the Browning service facility in MO., the Browning home office in Utah finally replaced the lost gun w/ a Grade III model w/ an adjustable stock. That was a real hassle to say the least.
Having already bought my Perazzi MX8 and TMX trap guns in the mean time, I quickly sold off the Browning replacement gun unfired and NIB in the box to help cover the cost of the Perazzi trap guns. I never tested the Citori for accuracy. But by that time, I had learned to properly examine O/U and SXS barrel assemblies for accurate POI regulation and potential accuracy. The gun looked to be well regulated. The new owner told me later that it was one very accurate shooting doubles gun. I was very glad for him and was glad to have more proof that I had learned to spot good or bad barrels.
The ability to reliably spot bad barrel assemblies I'd acquired out of necessity saved me and my butt from accepting a 28 ga, Grade III Lightning Invecta model and a matching .410 Invecta model which I ordered in 1997 from a shop in N.H.. Upon examination, both guns showed they both had badly screwed up barrel assemblies. Both were rejected at the shop after I clearly showed the owner how bad they were.
The shop owner returned the two guns to Browning for replacement w/o any argument. Browning shipped two replacements in a very timely manner. The barrel assemblies of both replacement guns appeared to be very well regulated upon examination. Both have continued to be two of the most accurate small gauge O/U models I've ever owned and shot. Lesson learned!!
I guess the Browning home office finally learned not to argue with me after having gone through the prior incidents about the trap and SC guns. I'm one stubborn SOB when I know I'm right.  |
Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:30 pm
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Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 749
Location: Kelso, Tennessee
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One of Galazan/CSMC's o/u model barrel sets fits perfectly in a Rizzini receiver. Any info on that? (I think its their Model 21 O/U)
(And Dale is probably taking a nap) |
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i reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war. |
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:51 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2168
Location: Florida
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| Dave Erickson wrote: |
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Where's Dale when we need him?
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:56 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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| cowdoc87 wrote: |
One of Galazan/CSMC's o/u model barrel sets fits perfectly in a Rizzini receiver. Any info on that? (I think its their Model 21 O/U)
(And Dale is probably taking a nap)
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The truth of what I've been posting is self evident here. Thanks for sharing cowdoc87.
Dale obviously needs his nappy times or he tends to get real cranky. So do I now. It's an "old fart" thing many of us old farts have in common. |
Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:58 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy
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| cowdoc87 wrote: |
One of Galazan/CSMC's o/u model barrel sets fits perfectly in a Rizzini receiver. Any info on that? (I think its their Model 21 O/U)
(And Dale is probably taking a nap)
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Okay, that did it. I never want to stop 16gg when he is on a roll, everybody should know by now that he knows everything.
We are here only to add to 16gg's glory. He knows, you only guess.
16gg has looked down more crooked barrels than all of us combined.
Italian gun makers quake in their boots at the thought of a 16gg review, Browning loves him, for they do no wrong, and hang on his every word. You do know that he convinced them to develop the 16 ga BPS don't you?
Dale |
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One man with courage makes a majority.
...Andrew Jackson... |
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