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Joined: 12 Dec 2016 Posts: 9 Location: North Dakota

Hello,

I'm new to the forum and new to reloading. I was recently handed down my grandfather's 16 GA. Walther SxS. Best I can tell is that the manufacturer date is November of 1935. The gun is in good condition and has not seen any use since the mid 1980's. Now that I have this gun, I would like to load low pressure shells for dove and pheasant. I got my hands on an old but good condition Pacific DL-105 reloader, 4 bags of SP16 1 1/8 oz wads, and a box of over 600 of the same hulls. I'm confused about the hulls though. The stamping on the brass says "S & W - F USA". I have found almost no information on this but I'm assuming that they're Smith & Wesson - Fiocchi hulls? I'm wondering if these hulls would be suitable to use with recipes that call for Fiocchi hulls?

I haven't started reloading yet. I bought the Lyman 5th edition handbook and have been reading that and trying to study and learn as much as I can before attempting it myself.

Thank you in advance for any information that you can give.

Brian

*Last edited by skeettx on Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:59 pm; edited 5 times in total*

Hello NDtrapper

Pleased to see you got AUTHORIZED Smile

WELCOME on your first posting

Those INDEED are old SW-F and were sold by Alcan.
Mine uses the Euro primer.

These old 20 gauge hulls were virgin hulls and liked the 6 point crimp better

Mike

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3177 Location: NCWa

First of all, WELCOME to the site. You'll enjoy it around here.

I'm not sure about the mfg of the S&W hulls. Do you think they are about the same age as the other equipment/ last shooting? I have some older loading manuals that may list loads for the hulls- are they plastic, fiber basewad?

Joined: 12 Dec 2016 Posts: 9 Location: North Dakota

Thank you for the welcome and replies. I do believe that the hulls are the same age as the wads and loader. The hulls are red plastic with a fiber basewad and have never been fired. Is it safe to assume that these hulls could be used with recipes that call for a Fiocchi hull?

Thanks!

Brian

Joined: 12 Dec 2016 Posts: 9 Location: North Dakota

Mike,

That is the same stamping on my brass. Thank you for the information.

*Last edited by skeettx on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total*

Now, I must ask if you have a 65 or 70 mm chamber
Mike

Joined: 12 Dec 2016 Posts: 9 Location: North Dakota

I believe that it's a 70 mm chamber. However, I don't see a 65 or 70 stamped on the underside of the barrel. I'll post a picture of it if I can. [/img]

Joined: 12 Dec 2016 Posts: 9 Location: North Dakota

I have several hundred new primed old dark blue S&W 16's with the silver/chrome colored base. I load them just like Federals, because they are similarly constructed with the wound paper basewad, but My S&W's do have slightly less capacity. Your batch of hulls,however, may be different, so check them. Here's how I do it:

First I measure the length and depth of the hull with a micrometer caliper. Inside depth is from the hull mouth to the bottom of the basewad, not to the top of the primer. Often there is a small, thin ridge where the basewad rests against the hull wall. I measure the depth from the hull mouth to that edge also. Then I fill the hulls level to the top with small shot, and weigh that shot. I use #9's, but almost any smal size would do, like 7.5's or maybe even 6's in a pinch -- you are just comparing case capacity, so it isn't super critical, but remember smaller is better, or you will distort (underestimate for comparison) the capacity of the portion of the hull that holds the powder, as the shape details of the inner basewad become similar in dimension to the shot size -- worst case example: put in buckshot and there's a lot of "air space" down there not filled with anything, especially at the basewad, which will have diameters smaller than the hull walls. A liquid would be best for capacity determination, but it is a mess. See below the measurements I just took for 5 different 2 3/4 inch 16 gauge hulls that actually do load and perform similarly. All dimensions are in inches and grains. BW means "basewad", BWR means the aforementioned raised basewad rim, if present:

Federal -- Length 2.74, Depth BW 2.46, BWR 2.36, capacity 1414

My S&W -- Length 2.72, Depth BW 2.36, BWR 2.29, capacity 1343

Fiocchi -- Length 2.72, Depth BW 2.41, capacity 1396

Cheddite Paper -- Length 2.73, Depth BW 2.49, BWR 2.28, capacity 1379

Win Ched (Super-X) -- Lgth 2.73 Dpth BW 2.52, BWR 2.29, capacity 1417

Now all this will have variation hull to hull, batch to batch -- I only measured one hull each, these results do follow the patterns I experience. Note the max variation in the whole group is 71 grais of #9's. That's a shade over 5/32 of an ounce -- a little over an eighth. Sounds like a lot? Well I put that amount in a short cut-off ring of a 12 gauge hull I had laying around (no ring of a 16), to see how deep that 71 grains is. Well it was one layer of # 9's in that 12 gauge hull -- thats.080" deep, the nominal diameter of a #9. The area of a 16 hull would be about 21% less than that of a 12, so 71 grains of #9's represents about a layer and fifth of another -- not much. Note all the other hulls present a much smaller variation than that of the extreme.

The upshot of all this is that there will be some crimp depth variation with the same loads in all these different hulls, and it may make cosmetic differences, to which the re-loader will have to attend to his satisfaction -- but it can be done. The main thing, however, in my opinion is that there isn't much internal ballistic difference between loads using exactly the same components in these hulls, with good crimps as long as the texture and friction of the inside surfaces of the hull walls is similar, which we know it isn't -- note comparisons using new unfired and reloaded hulls, and comparing paper Cheddites, for instance vs. plastic Cheddites. Anyway, I personally would have and do have no trouble loading my S&W marked hulls with the same loads as in Federals. And it seems to me the purple Federal/Estate 16's of the last 20 years or so have thinner walls than the older ones -- more like Ched's and Fio's. My S&W's are fairly thick-walled and tough, like an older Federal, not as thin as a Win-Ched or a Herter's, which I would expect to produce lower pressures with the same components and loads.

For whatever that is worth to you, these are my opinions and consideratons. You must live with your own.

Cheers,
Tony

*Last edited by skeettx on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total*

65mm chambers but take one of your VIRGIN hulls and with the barrels off the receiver see it the hull will fully seat without too much force.

One more question, on the sides of the barrels are the words NITRO there?

Please let us know what you find.

Mike

Joined: 12 Dec 2016 Posts: 9 Location: North Dakota

Thanks Tony, that's some good information!

Mike, the hull will fully seat and it does say Nitro on the side of the barrel.

*Last edited by skeettx on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total*

OK, since it will full seat it appears the gun may have had its chambers lengthened

Look here to ensure

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10018&highlight=majic+marker

Mike

Joined: 12 Dec 2016 Posts: 9 Location: North Dakota

Thank you for the link Mike. How can you tell that the chamber's are 65mm by looking at the picture I posted?

*Last edited by skeettx on Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total*

16 in a circle

Joined: 12 Dec 2016 Posts: 9 Location: North Dakota

I thought that was to indicate the gauge. Thanks for the information and taking the time to help me out.