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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 601
Location: Hudson,Wy

Okay folks. Looking for something here, specifically #6 1/2 magnum lead. 6 1/2 should measure .105", right between #7 and #6 if it were manufactured accurately. I realize that BPI lists a variety of sizes and measurements for its nickel plated lead but the stuff flattens way too easily with a pair of pliers for me to ever consider it anything more than "pretty" chilled shot for too much dough.

I have read that Rio and some other shot does tend to run a half size small. Who out there has experience with magnum grade shot from these sources? Half size small or just inconsistent? True magnum shot and uniform? If so, then by default #6 Rio or Spartan may very well be #6 1/2 mag lead.

The goal here is a to find what would amount to about a #6 1/2 pellet in a high antimony offering for long range hun and chukar loads. Huns in particular are notorious wild flushers in Wyoming, even on the opener. If you want to actually take any home, you deal with it. #6 has the punch to get them at obscene ranges but I can only get the matching pattern to back it up with my 10ga. I don't like carrying that one all day. 6 1/2 would get the pellet count up enough to really help and still hit with authority where #7 starts getting weak, plus it would give a little extra insurance in sharp tail country.

At any rate, is anyone here able to verify?

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jswanson
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:03 pm  Reply with quote



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As to size I can't say but with respect to hardness Mike Campbell did a very nice test a while back and if my memory is correct Eagle pretty much out preformed everything else. In any event his work would be a good starting point with respect to hardness and may be some of the fellows could give you specific diameters of the Eagle shot or who ever was in first place. But I'm pretty sure it was Eagle.

Joe

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fn16ga
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:05 pm  Reply with quote
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http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8315&highlight=hardness
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Good info in Mike's test there that backs up a lot of what I have tried to convince others of with simple plier testing. A couple folks remained rather obtuse. Anyway, Rio and Spartan are not on that chart (bummer) and I am still curious about measurements. If the sixes are small I could get some and compare the hardness to West Coast Mag with the same type of apparatus that Mike used.

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Little Creek
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:38 pm  Reply with quote
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Wyo- you might try some Lawence Magnum or equivalent #7 shot. I use #7 widely on grouse sized birds and have shot pheasant at 30 yards with it. It might be easier to find than #6-1/2.

On the other hand, English and Italian shot is slightly smaller than US. I have used B&P #6 shot on pheasant...it's deadly. English shot may be more trouble to find. Think Gamebore, but expensive. Ijust saw a post somewhere about comparing shot sizes between countries. If I can find it, I;ll give you the info.

Mike
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Little Creek
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:50 pm  Reply with quote
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WYO-I found this recent post that has information on English and Italian shot measurements and sizes. Go to this post and look it over to find the part on shot:

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3428

Mike
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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I already have lots of #7. The british stuff is a full size smaller. I am however curious about some the stuff that is currently available in the U.S. like Rio. Rumor is 1/2 size small.

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setterpie
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:33 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: NWPA

WyoChukar wrote:

The goal here is a to find what would amount to about a #6 1/2 pellet in a high antimony offering for long range hun and chukar loads. Huns in particular are notorious wild flushers in Wyoming, even on the opener. If you want to actually take any home, you deal with it. #6 has the punch to get them at obscene ranges but I can only get the matching pattern to back it up with my 10ga. I don't like carrying that one all day. 6 1/2 would get the pellet count up enough to really help and still hit with authority where #7 starts getting weak, plus it would give a little extra insurance in sharp tail country.

At any rate, is anyone here able to verify?


What shot charge are you using, and how far do you intend to shoot. If you could find true 6 1/2s, you're only going to pick up roughly 40 pellets in a 1 or 1 1/8 oz load vs 6 shot.

I don't have my reloading manual handy, but I can't imagine the difference in energy of a piece of 6 vs a piece of 7 that start at the same velocity is wildly different (less than 0.5 ft lbs would be my guess) when you get out to 40 yards.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:34 pm  Reply with quote
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I had this same experience with desert Quail hunting. One ounce of 7.5 would just puff the crap out of the bird, feathers everywhere, no bird. If the bird lives 20 seconds after it hits the ground it is gone. They run down a hole that hast. So #6 killed them right off as long as there were 3 hits. didnt happen all the time with open chokes. To get the pellet count to match the 7.5 had to shoot 1 5/8 oz of #6. it worked but 3" 12ga was no fun to shoot or carry. Tried 1 1/8, #6.5 and no better than the #7.5. then I discovered Longshot shoots 1 1/8 at 1400fps 1 1/4 #6 at1400 in 12 ga Its all about delivering energy to the target

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setterpie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:23 am  Reply with quote



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byrdog wrote:
I had this same experience with desert Quail hunting. One ounce of 7.5 would just puff the crap out of the bird, feathers everywhere, no bird. If the bird lives 20 seconds after it hits the ground it is gone. They run down a hole that hast. So #6 killed them right off as long as there were 3 hits. didnt happen all the time with open chokes. To get the pellet count to match the 7.5 had to shoot 1 5/8 oz of #6. it worked but 3" 12ga was no fun to shoot or carry. Tried 1 1/8, #6.5 and no better than the #7.5. then I discovered Longshot shoots 1 1/8 at 1400fps 1 1/4 #6 at1400 in 12 ga Its all about delivering energy to the target


Check a reloading manual for an energy chart. I think the one I have is a Lyman from 12 years ago, and it has a chart showing the popular shot sizes, and compares their energy at the muzzle, 20, 40, and 60 yards when it starts at various velocities ranging from around 1100 to 1330 fps. Shot that starts within 200 fps of each other has almost the same energy when it reaches 40 yards. So a piece of 6 that starts at 1300 vs one that starts at 1400 fps is going to be within 0.1 to 0.3 ftlbs of each other at 40 yards. I think their point was worry more about pattern than velocity, and that if you've chosen the proper shot size, it will do the job.

I assume if you're hunting with a 12, the solution would be changing choke and choosing your shots rather than going to a heavier, faster load. If most of your shots are inside 30 yards, I'd load and choke for that, and watch anything beyond that fly away. I'd think an IC, Skeet II, or LM choke and 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz of 6 at 1220 fps would fit that bill well.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:00 am  Reply with quote
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I finally settled for 1 1/8 #6 at around 1400fps out of a M-37 16ga ,.05 choke this was over 10 years ago.

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setterpie
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:39 am  Reply with quote



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byrdog wrote:
I finally settled for 1 1/8 #6 at around 1400fps out of a M-37 16ga ,.05 choke this was over 10 years ago.


How far are you able to shoot that load/choke combo?

My full choke 37 with Remington's Express 1 1/8 oz of 6 is out of steam by 40 yards. Kinda has has a sweet spot around 30 yards, much closer than that it can really tear things up, but not enough pellets after 35 yards. I've considered opening it up slightly to be a 30 yard max gun. With a pointing dog and PA's farm raised birds, 90% of my shots are inside that.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:12 am  Reply with quote
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this gun is over bored to .670 I have killed doves out to 45ish same load. Quail was always over dogs

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:48 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Don't worry about digging up the energy chart, I have one and learned to ignore it long ago. Kinetic energy figure are measured by firing the projectile into a metal plate and in no way actually account for how energy is transferred to a bird or animal. Comparing numbers between a 22 rimfire round and any shot load, one would have to conclude that shotguns can't kill. A 22 lr does a mighty poor job on coyotes but I used to kill the heck out of them with a 10 ga. with T steel shot.

Distance? Won't go there since it will likely start a debate. I will say that #7 starts losing oomph on huns after 50 yards fairly quickly.

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pbeaver
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:54 am  Reply with quote
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If you are willing to use factory ammo, see the topic for B&P ammo that was just started. The B&P #6 shot I've checked in the past measured about .105. I didn't check hardness, but they patterned like quality shot.

Phil
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