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Northwind
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 5

Hello all,

This is my first post, I hope not to bore you all with this but I am looking for some help.

I currently own a Citori 16 gauge white lightning which I bought last year. I have a MEC 600 JR setup for 16 gauge that my father gave to me.

I obtained some information and picked a load to reload that used 800x powder, Remington wads, and Federal hulls. When I choose this combination I noticed I could use the same components for both a 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz loads, I figured this would work well as I would not need to buy additional powders and such for two different loads. Just needed to change the amount of powder and the charge bar/bushing.

So when I attempted to reload my first box of 1 oz., I am having problems getting my crimp correct. The crimp is a 6 point crimp. It seems like the shell is not getting filled up enough by the powder, shot, and wad? It seems like I have too much room at the top for the crimp to rest on anything? Does that make sense? I have made several adjustments to my MEC per the manual to try to get the crimps better. The crimps are better but not great, not like I feel I should be getting.

My question is what can I do for a better crimp with my 1 oz. load?

Next question is should I try a completely different recipe for the reloads, meaning switching powders, wads and such? I would like to stay with the Federal hulls if possible, if that is a bad idea please tell me. I hate to have to waste all of the 800x powder I have. Is there a better powder to use?

Sorry for my first post being so long, but I have been following this forum for a year and figured I should join a great forum. I look forward to your suggestions, thanks in advance.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 511
Location: Hudson,Wy

Okay I think I can answer your questions. The Rem SP16 wad is designed for 1 1/8 oz. loads and is too short for 1 oz. loads. You can use a filler though and it will solve the issue. Many folks use a Cheerio. Seriously. You will likely hear reference to puffed wheat and a few other cheap and easy choices.

800-X is a good powder to use and probably a must when combining the Rem wad and Fed case do to the super loose fit. Most other powders will tend to leak past the wad and case blooper loads. 800-X is my go to powder for 1 oz loads but I use the Claybuster pink wads instead-perfect match for most straight wall cases when loading 1 oz. of shot. Rem wads are best used only with Rem hulls since those hulls are very thick and the wads fit them right. The Rem wads are almost 20ga. in size.

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Northwind
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 5

Okay,
The load I found was in several reloading books and lists the SP16 for use in 1 oz. loads with a Federal hull, so what gives?

Where is the "cheerio" placed in the shell?

You refer to using a Claybuster pink wad, that is not listed in the reloading manuals I have as an option, also, what is a straight walled case?

Sorry for all of these questions but I am really trying to figure this out and make certain I am reloading a safe-to-shoot shell.

Thanks
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:39 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 511
Location: Hudson,Wy

Were there any notes about adding a filler for that load? Some manuals will have a little footnote and others will expect you to figure it out. I have long found that to be an issue with certain loads that just don't fit right due to the wad being a bit long or short for the use.

There has been debate on whether or not the Cheerio disrupts the shot pattern if placed on top of the charge so many drop it in before dispensing the shot.

There is a lot of data on this site, if you do a search you might find the spreadsheet for 800-x loads. I use 22 gr. of 800-x in my 1 oz loads with pink wad, Win 209 primer, and Fed hull. It is a relatively mild load. The max load I have in my notes with that combo of components uses 24.5 gr. of 800-x to make 10,200 psi and 1390fps but I feel no need to use anything that severe.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:59 am  Reply with quote
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Wyo has that right about foot notes or no notes.

Cheerio's won't disrupt the shot pattern, but they crush instantly. Technically this bad for internal ballistics, whether it affects the load you use is a crap shoot.

I hate fillers of any kind, mostly because there is no reason for them.

There are quite a few wads:

DR-16 for 3/4 & 7/8 and maybe a few 1 oz. loads.

B & P 16 (AKA trap commander, Z16} 1 oz and a few 1 1/8 oz. loads

Gualandi 1618 & 1621 (aka SG16) 1 oz. and a few 7/8 oz loads, the 1618 is slightly shorter than the 1621(I might have that backwards) but.......they have been used interchangeably in many loads.

Cheddite 1632 for 1 1/8 oz. loads but there isnt much data

Remington SP-16 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 oz. loads, finicky about powder migration in anything but a Remington hull, except with 800-X for the most part.

CB-0100-16 for 1 oz.

CB-0780-16 for 7/8 oz.

The last two Claybuster wads, be careful about powder migration in anything but a Remington hull. Some folks have a way of expanding the obturating cup, but like fillers I find it to be unnecessary because there are wads that don't require messing with.

My favorites are the DR-16 and the Gualandi 1621. These take care of all my loads for targets and it doesn't matter which hulls I load them in.

I do like the two Claybuster wads but only if I have Remington hulls.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 511
Location: Hudson,Wy

I must add a note about the Claybuster wads. The blue wad is intended for 1 ounce and the pink for 7/8 oz. but one detail they don't point out: those are in Win compression formed hulls (taper wall). The original wad that they copied was made for those hulls. WW CF's have less capacity than most. I suspect that in RGL hulls the fit would also be accurate at 1 oz. & 7/8 oz. respectively. In other straight wall hulls the blue ones actually hold 1 1/8 oz and the pink ones hold 1 oz. of shot with nice level crimps.

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Northwind
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 5

So I am even more confused now. What is a CF and a RGL?

I am a complete beginner to this and am sorry for not knowing what all of these terms mean.

I simply want to reload a basic 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. target and hunting load using Federal hulls, 800x powder, Remington SP16 wads and win 209 primers.

I have not tried my 1 1/8 oz. load yet, I am hoping they will fill up better and thus crimp better.

One thing I am confused about, you mention all of these other wads, but none of the reloading manuals have loads that use these, how does one know how to use these items when they are not in a published load?

Thanks again!!!
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:46 pm  Reply with quote
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A CF hull is an old style Winchester hull that is no longer made but most folks would love to see return. They were very nice to reload.

An RGL is a Remington Game Load hull. Any of the current manufacturied Remington 16 Gauge hulls are considered to be RGL. The real name for this hull is Remington SP.

They all are constructed of 3 pieces(although they are called 2 piece) the steel metal head which is plated either brass or copper color. They can be either Mid or High metal head. An outer plastic tube with and inner plastic basewad.

The plastic tube can be black or green ribbed. The inner based wad is green or black.

They are easy to load BUT they don't last long before the crimp end gets brittle and cracks.

I like them as many others do, but we all wish they would last longer. Some of the hulls made back 20 years ago would reload a number of times, but that is ancient history.

This forum calls them RGL's, it works just fine.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:08 pm  Reply with quote
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The other question you asked about loading data.

There is a Reloading Group that one of the 16 Gauge Society members put together. He posts as Oldhunter.

He really put together a very nice spreadsheet and you can access it by this link below:

https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/reloading16gauge/conversations/messages

You will have to sign up and Oldhunter will accept you into the group. Once accepted you have access to the data.

Hodgdon does list some of these wads in their loading data, unfortunately Hodgdon doesn't list the wads by manufacturer name and part number. Instead, they list them by Ballistics Products part number which further confuses the issue.

It isn't as complicated as it seems and any number of folks on here can answer your questions. Lots of good folks here.

So ask questions, guys are here to help.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:08 pm  Reply with quote
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DC37, you might also say that CF simply means "Compression Formed", a manufacturing technique not used anymore. We don't want to get too hooked on vernacular and confuse new people.

By the way, Claybuster's made their AA clones in 16 gauge with a larger over-powder cup than the old Winchester AA wads, so there is not so much to fear in using them in the thin straight-walled hulls of today. Think about it -- they certainly would not have made them for hulls that are fairly rare today. Yes, they still work in the thick-walled but straight-walled Reming Game Loads (RGL's), but they are useable in Fiocchi, Cheddite, etc. type hulls.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:32 am  Reply with quote
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Maximum,


I did get a little wordy now didn't I Embarassed

The fella asked the question and got more than he bargained for.

Cool

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Beware, the Claybuster clones may be a little wider, but ball or extra fine disc powders like Longshot does still leak around them in straight wall cases (other than RGL). Been there! Cackle-cackle-cackle, swing, pull trigger...FWIP! Nooooo! Shocked

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:11 pm  Reply with quote
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[quote="Northwind"]Hello all,

This is my first post, I hope not to bore you all with this but I am looking for some help..."


Northwind, reloading 16 gauge loads requires a bit more savvy than 12 and 20 gauge loads, because finding well matched components for the last two are much more common and easier to find. However, once you understand this, the process becomes easier. You will understand that adapting existing 16 ga. components for multiple uses is required and not difficult.

First, it is a must to understand that for any gauge reload, matching the proper powder/wad/shot column to the hull is a must in order to get excellent crimps. For 16 gauge reloads, the top of the column should reach to within about 5/16" from the top edge of the hull mouth give or take a 1/32 of an inch. The top of the shot column will then be high enough to firmly support the bottom of the crimp folds so they won't collapse inward. Longer columns won't allow enough room for the crimp folds to firmly and completely close and be locked in place by the raised edge of the crimp when it's formed. The essential raised crimp edge should be about 1/16 of an inch above the flat pie sections of the crimp. 5/16ths of hull mouth above the shot/wad/powder column allows enough hull material to form a perfectly formed, folded, and locked crimp. Examining the crimp of any good factory load will show you what to look for.

Sometimes it's best to match reloading components by brand if it's possible. Remington 16 gauge wad and hulls are designed to perfectly fit each other. The wad diameters match the inside diameters of the hulls and prevent both hard seating if too big or hot gas leaks around the wad bottoms if too small.

The SP16 wad was originally designed for 1-1/8 ounce hunting loads. Remington used to offer the R16 wad for 1 ounce loads, but it was discontinued as a reloading component sometime in the 1980's. However, unused caches of the R16 wad still exist. Asking around at gun shows and active gun clubs w/ skeet and or trap fields is a good way to locate discontinued but still useful components.

The good news for us 16 ga folks is that the SP16 wad (or any other 16 gauge plastic wad) can be easily and perfectly adapted for lighter shot loads, because the shot cups have the room to do it. A .135" thick (about 1/8" thick) 28 gauge nitro card wad placed in the bottom of the shot cup displaces 1/8 ounce of shot almost perfectly in any 16 gauge plastic wad. Adding two nitro card wads displaces a 1/4 ounce of shot and so on.

Using nitro card wads in shot cups is the widely recommended way found in many reloading manuals and booklets to fill the excess room in the shot cup of any wad. Nitro card wads are flat and firm enough to support the shot/wad/powder column when the load is fired. Placing nitro card wads inside the shot cups also does not change the over all length (OAL) of any one piece plastic wad. In short, the nitro card simply raises the bottom of the shot cup to adjust the shot/wad/powder column without noticeably effecting load ballistics.

Changing powders, plastic wads, and/or shot loads will cause changes in the volume occupied inside the hulls and will change the all important shot/wad/powder column height. Various powders all too often have different bulks, so recommended, safe charge weights will have different volumes. Changes in volumes from swapping wads and/or shot loads should be obvious.

800X powder is a very flexible and useful powder for reloading 1 ounce and 1-1/8 ounce 16 gauge field loads. If you wish to reload with it, then all you need to do is to find wads that closely match the inside diameters of the hulls you wish to load and also occupy enough space to produce the all important proper column height. Nitro card filler wads of the right diameters and thicknesses allow us to adapt one piece plastic wads for lighter shot loads than they have been designed for

Hope my input helps you on your way to reloading excellent loads for any use you might have in mind. Doing so will allow you to get the very best out of your Citori Lightning model for any hunting and target shooting you wish to do just as I have for many years. It's one excellent O/U in my humble opinion. feeding it good loads will ensure this for you.

Good luck,
16GG
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 2810
Location: NCWa

Dogchaser37 wrote:
Maximum,


I did get a little wordy now didn't I Embarassed

The fella asked the question and got more than he bargained for.

Cool


Mark, See above for the maestro of wordy Smile Smile Smile
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Northwind
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 5

16 Gaugeguy,

Great info, thank you so much.

My next question is, why do the posted loads from reloading manuals say to use the Remington wad with a Federal hull for 1 oz. loads then?

So should I use Nitro card wads with my 1 oz. loads? Will this help with my crimps?

I will have to do some measuring, I am uncertain how much space I have on top of the shot column before crimping. I will check and report back.

Should I not be using Federal hulls? What are most of you using? I just happen to have about 100 Federal hulls, this is the main reason I decided to use them, plus I like the purple

Also, how much difference does it make if I use a Federal primer vs. a Winchester primer?

Thanks in advance, I am finally learning so much!
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