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51smd
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:36 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2016
Posts: 5
Location: NNJ

Im just started reloading Herter's 16 ga 2 3/4" 1 oz loads and I getting a mushrooming of the top of the shells. Need help, any ideas.

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old colonel
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:50 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Topeka, Kansas

Adjust up the final crimp up

Likely cause is the crimping head is too low

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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:36 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
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Location: NCWa

Is this happening at the final crimp position or when you are trying to push the shell out of the die at the last position?
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skeettx
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:36 pm  Reply with quote
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What model 375 die sets are you using?

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=359946

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51smd
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2016
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Location: NNJ

AmericanMeet wrote:
Is this happening at the final crimp position or when you are trying to push the shell out of the die at the last position?


I think its when i'm pushing the shell out.

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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
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I've had that problem (shell not wanting to get pushed out of the die when loaded). It's due to the shell being longer than the die and the base having too much resistance, so as the ram pushes on the top of the shell, instead of it falling out, the top get flared. When this happens on mine I either 1. lube the hull bases so that they slide easier or 2. resize the base. #2 works best if you have access to a Mec sizer.
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51smd
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2016
Posts: 5
Location: NNJ

AmericanMeet wrote:
I've had that problem (shell not wanting to get pushed out of the die when loaded). It's due to the shell being longer than the die and the base having too much resistance, so as the ram pushes on the top of the shell, instead of it falling out, the top get flared. When this happens on mine I either 1. lube the hull bases so that they slide easier or 2. resize the base. #2 works best if you have access to a Mec sizer.


Thanks I will try it.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:32 am  Reply with quote
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Welcome to the fundamentally faulty way all PW shotshell re-loading machines handle the hull. Pressing the die over the shell isn't too bad, but pressing the loaded shell out of the die by poking the crimp end can (not "will", but "can") produce the problem 51smd is describing. The newer full length dies help, but I think the answer is not lubrication, but rather to make sure the inside of the die is well polished, clean and dry, so the resized, re-loaded hull can break out of the friction of the die more easily. I don't think it is good to have lubricant on the re-loaded shells.

The other problem with the way PW handles hulls is that they restrain the rim of the hull while pressing in the primer. This can lead to concaving the hull base. This is not much of a problem nowadays, with strong steel case heads, but it used to be seen with old thin brass heads and paper basewads.

MEC used this same full-length sleeve type hull handling method on their first reloader some 60-odd years ago, the 300, and quickly abandoned it on all subsequent machines except for the later cheap-o efforts, the seldom-seen 250 and 310, which I see as failures because the manufacturing cost benefits they might have had over the 400 and the 600 Jr (which had to be few if any) did not outweigh their disadvantageous reloading procedures. They were quickly discontinued as MEC consolidated their efforts in single-stage reloaders behind the soon to become ubiquitous 600 Jr. MEC has always re-primed by pressing down on the base of the hull from inside, eliminating the possibility of concaving the base, and actually helping to flatten it, if it had been concaved some how for instance, by firing in a Browning A5, Rem Model 11, or 11-48, etc. MEC pulls the hull by the rim when extracting it from the crimp die, which does not disturb the crimp end. Pulling tends to shrink the crimped end away from the die, while PW's pushing on the crimped end tends to expand it and make it harder to un-stick from the die. Though apparently invisible to most users buying the product, hull handling is a major differentiation MEC has from the others. Among its consequences is also the facilitation of design of simple, durable mechanisms of low manufacturing cost for both single-stage and progressive shotshell reloaders.

Incidentally, those longer so-called "full-length resizing" dies from PW et al actually have more friction because they have greater contact with the hull. They are a bit of a trade-off -- friction for support. They don't really resize full-length, because you can't really swedge-resize paper or plastic hull material; they should more correctly be called "full-length support" dies, as that is their purpose, and their function. Fortunately, most of today's steel-headed cases and slick plastics work well enough with the concepts used by P/W and the like, such as Spolar, etc. Their concepts, however, are parts-count and precision intensive. Larger numbers of parts necessitating greater precision, made by more costly methods, mean their manufacturing costs are considerably higher, as are, consequently, their prices. Being at a price disadvantage, their major differentiation and appeal to the market is the image of "quality". That the "quality image" on which they trade has no positive effect on the quality of the task done by their product, nor on the life or ease of use of their product, is reflected in their small market share.

The market tells the truth.

Happy Re-Loading!
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:04 pm  Reply with quote
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Maximum,

You are absolutely correct about lube on a hull. There shouldn't be any lube on a hull. When a shell is fired it is supposed to grip and seal the chamber. Lubricant allows the hull to slide in the chamber allowing more force against the breach than is supposed to be there.

The more I hear about all these other reloading machines the more I like my Rube Goldberg MEC's warts and all.

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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 131

MaximumSmoke,
that was a very well written and interesting post. Thanks!

I have both MEC and PW375 machines, and I've often been dissatisfied with the PW hull ejection on the new "C" taper crimps, with their exposed top that can mushroom. To the point that I now actually prefer the old style actual full-length dies, specifically because the crimp top is supported during ejection. The support during final crimp also results in a more circular crimp with straight walls.

The excess plastic in the Rem hull primer pockets is often discussed at other forums, it causes no issues with the more round-top Rem209p, but who uses those? When using virtually any other primer, the plastic up at primer pocket top interferes with the fit of the primer in the last few thousandths of insert. This can be a real issue with the PW because as you state the primer is inserted with pressure from below while the hull rim is held-- this very often produces excessive force to get the primer in, and concave hull bottoms. I basically have to use a twist drill to remove that plastic if I want to reload RemGC hulls in my 20ga PW375.

I will also add that on steel shot reloading where the entire shot column is solid (no airspace in the wad or crush sections), the final ejection process VERY often will exert enough pressure that the primer is partially pushed out, enough the hull can't be rotated in the track back around to the primer insert station to reset it. This is with solidly held primers of proper sizing.

While I love the "quality feel" of my PWs, they have many more issues and disadvantages than MEC 600jr or Sizemaster when reloading steel shot; and my MEC9000 beats them hands down when producing target loads. I've got 2 of them and several die heads and die sets... but I'm using the PW less and less as time goes on.
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