Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Location: West Coast of WI
Makes me want to get a short kit for my Sizemaster and load some up!
_________________ What friends I have, what days I treasure most, what places that I think about and smile . . . they are because shotguns are. Without them I would have been empty. They have made my life full. - Gene Hill
Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Location: Western PA
I have been thinking of getting some paper hulls to load for my older guns, just because they deserve to go back to the days of their youth. What data is available for paper hulls? Can you use the data for plastic hulls? I understand that the pressures/velocities may be less? Most of my 16 ga. loading is for target in the 3/4 oz or 7/8 oz.
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Just went over and bought some. I already have a few hundred 70 mm black high brass 16 ga. paper Cheds (which I intended to trim for my short chambered guns), so I only got one hundred of these 65 mm. You'll thank me for leaving the rest for you fellows! Nice color. Not quite as dark as old Peters papers, but still a nice blue, kind of a royal blue -- a shade darker than in the picture on the BPI site. Nice brass colored heads, too. They will make handsome loads.
There are some loads for paper Cheddites on the old Low Pressure Group in Yahoo -- that group is titled "16GaugeReloaders". If I recall correctly from when they were developed, the loads in new paper Cheddites had slightly higher pressures than the same loads in new plastic Cheddites. That somewhat, but not entirely, blew my idea to use them for my old damascus 16. The loads were tested by Tom Armbrust, and he laid the higher pressures off to greater wad friction against the paper hull. There is one pie-crimped load for 2-5/8 inch (a bit under 67 mm, so close enough to use for these new blue hulls which are 65 mm) and the rest are for 2-3/4 inch pie-crimped shells (70 mm). The loads are for 15/16, 1, 1-1/16 and 1-1/8 oz. That load for the 2-5/8 inch hull was a 1 ouncer, and it produced a peak pressure of a shade over 6000 psi with over 1200 fps velocity, using nitro card and filler wads. There also are 3 roll crimped loads of strange lengths, 2.25, 2.5, and 2.75 inch, with 3/4, 7/8 and 1 ounce of shot respectively. The 2-1/2 incher (63.5 mm) was 7/8 ounce at 1160 fps and 5300 psi.
Frankly, I'd just use the data for plastic Cheddites and the like and live with the slightly higher pressures -- won't hurt anything unless you're really trying to split hairs, pressure-wise. Base wad and construction are the same so capacity is the same for the same length hull with Cheddites. By the way, the copy-cat-named Yahoo group "Reloading16Gauge" has some loads for old Federal and Winchester/Western paper hulls, but nothing for Cheddite papers. These three brands of paper hulls are completely different in construction and capacity.
Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Location: Western PA
I got my paper cheddites from BP today. . Loaded up a few with my 3/4 oz target load with DR wad. All seems fine with the load. I used a BP roll crimper, which I usually have success with plastic hulls. The paper hulls rolled in, but had a rippled effect the first load, the 2nd, 3rd and fourth loadings got progressively worse, due to the paper starting to separate, which I assumed would happen. I put some lube on the roll crimper, did not have any better results. Would I have better success with a Precision roll crimper as some have suggested in previous posts, or is it an issue with paper hulls.
Their stock must have been pretty small. Out of stock now.
I bought a case of the black papers when they were on sale a few years ago so I have a good supply. I cut them down and use BP SG16 and SG16S wads in them. I get 4-5 loadings from them before I have to toss them.
The blue papers really look nice. Never saw those before.
_________________ "A gun should be a thing of beauty, something which gives its owner pride and pleasure. For that reason, most men will buy the best gun they can afford. With a good gun on his arm, a man becomes a sporting gentleman, both on the field and off."
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
BFox -- If you are using the single pin roll crimper from BPI, it isn't surprising you get the result you describe. I have not used their double pin crimpers, but since they are made by the same fellow, I presume they are made the same way -- a pin installed transverse to the slot that forms the roll, with its axis perpendicular to the spin axis of the crimper, but the pin is not lined up radially -- i.e. the pin lies in a plane perpendicular to the spin axis, but rather at an angle to the axis of the crimper -- not pointed at the center of the crimper. This pin seems to catch and pinch the hull material, roughing it up. I'm guessing the newer dual pin ones just have another pin so they don't feel so off center to people using them with no other guidance but a hand-held drill, but work the same way.
Anyway, the major fault with this crimper is that the pin intended to roll over the hull edge stands way too proud of the bottom (top) of the slot in the crimper. The resulting "roll-over" is very harsh and square edged. I find BPI crimpers pretty hard on any hull material. Plastic will soften and move a little easier than paper. Think about what a roll crimp looks like in cross-section. To bend the edge of a small cylinder of paper 180 degrees on itself means the layers of a wound paper tube have to shear a little bit. This will weaken paper. Plastics don't have this problem, as they can soften and conform/reform. So paper requires a more gentle treatment by the crimper. I found the Precision Reloading crimper in 16 gauge to work quite well on paper -- much better all-around on paper and plastic than the one from BPI. The GAEP crimpers work even better, as they are shaped more smoothly inside and well polished, and most importantly have smoother ramps inside to roll the edge of the hull. The best I still swear by is a Lyman. I do not have a 16 gauge Lyman, though I have the 12 and 20. They have a very subtle and VERY smooth and gradual lumping (SIX of them!) inside to perform the roll-over. The slot is also round at its depth, and this produces a very nice rounded roll-over. There is another older Lyman design which has 4 ramps like the one from Precision Reloading. I have one of those in 10 gauge. It works well, but not as nice as the later Lymans with the 6 smooth bi-directional lumps. It does not round the rolled edge as well, and of course it is not bi-directional, as it will cut the hull edge if rotated backwards because of the sharp edge of the ramps. The Precision Reloading roll crimper I had was made exactly the same way as this old Lyman 10 gauge. It worked fine, but after I got the GAEP, I gave it away.
I think, a roll crimper should be designed with a round bottomed slot. GAEP has some with a rounded outer edge, and a square inner edge -- I don't like those. My GAEP 24 gauge is like that. It works OK, but that square inner edge is hard on the hull. If a roll crimper was to be made with pins installed across the slots, those pins should have no more than one third of their diameter exposed above the bottom of the slot. I'd recommend 3 or 4 such pin "bumps". Thus they would be more gentle in rolling over the hull edge, and letting the round-bottomed slot govern the final edge shape. They'd be bi-directional, too, but that's no tremendous benefit.
Hope this makes sense. If you can find an old hand-crank roll-crimper and polish it up (usually the business end is brass, and it polishes well with use, especially on paper which contains clay), it will likely do better than anything but a Lyman, though it will be a little slower to use. But how many roll crimped shells are you going to make, anyway . . . . . maybe several hundred in your lifetime; probably not thousands. If you want to make thousands, invest in more fixturing and tools, such as the GAEP equipment.
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Location: the Moosehorn
My experience with paper hulls is that they work best with paper wads. The ww mark 5 paper fold crimp shells were made with wax that would melt on firing just enough to be reformed as the paper wad passed by the case mouth, they would reload until the case burned through. I found that plastic wads would tear up the interior of the hulls and they were done. One important factor with the Cheds is to make target loads and under weight loads with fast burning powder then I can get 4 fold crimp reloads out of them. Longshot is a 1 use load as the stuff cooks the hull and they get real brittle and then the mouth of the hull just crunches on the crimp starter. Although the Ls loads are real killers. The wax also left a thin film on the chamber wall and it kept the chamber from corroding.
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If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Savage16 -- Carl, looking at the rest of the thread, I'm not sure where your question came from nor where it is bound (maybe it's too straight-forward ). However, it's a good question as is, and I would say yes, there is no problem reloading paper hulls with plastic wads, old Super-X or whatever, pie crimps or whatever. If it fits it is probably just fine -- I would not hesitate to make a wad substitution that would make a load fit. Remember, the old paper Western Super-X and Winchester SuperSpeed (same hull, different brass markings) were high brass and low base wad inside (high capacity). Old paper Western Xpert and Winchester Rangers were the same as each other except for markings, and they were low brass and high basewad inside. This was the same for the earliest plastic (polyformed) Win-West hulls, until they started using Cheddite or other Euro-sourced hulls. Those hulls had the same inside capacity and features even though the heavier loads had high brass and the light ones had low brass.
Back on course . . . . loading paper hulls with plastic wads was very common in my early loading days. Not a real problem. Just select a wad to get the height right to make a nice crimp and you are OK.
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