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bbrown
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:44 pm  Reply with quote
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I have been going through my meager stash of compression formed hulls, and I have quite the variety of hull markings and brass height, etc.



I was working up some 1oz loads, and I noticed that the Dove and Quail, Rabbit and Squirrel, and Super X, all with the Winchester Rider logo, crimp excellent. The high brass Western Super X with smooth brass seems like the plastic is thinner and more brittle at the mouth. Maybe it is just a batch thing, but I was curious if any of you have found that not all compression formed hulls are created equal?

I also scored 11 boxes of these Pheasant loads this week. They appear to be compression formed from the smooth sides and 8pt crimp and low brass, but I need to shoot one to confirm unless one of you knows for sure if these were true compression formed hulls.



Lastly I have this older box of the Double X magnums that are marked compression formed on the box.



It has been fun to go through these and learn a little more about which ones are better or worse.

Anyone else have the same experience?

Thanks,

Ben

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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:17 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
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Winchester/Western have had several variations on CF hulls, particularly on the height of the brass/steel. The box of Pheasant is CF.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:37 am  Reply with quote
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I know that my opinion isn't going to be all that popular but.........

While the CF Winchester hulls were friendly to reload, I never experienced the long hull life that many of you would get. Maybe it was the IMR SR-7625? I actually get more reloads from the green Cheddite hulls I bought from Graf's a few years back. I have some Cheddites with 6 loads on them and they are still in good shape. I never went past 4 or 5 reloads with the CF's. The crimps would crack and pinhole at the shoulder.

The first first three hulls in the picture were more long lived than the other styles in my opinion.

I used to buy cases of the low brass 16 ga Winchester Dove and Quail loads, to get a good stash of hulls for reloading.

I didn't reload many of the other styles that you have pictured, but you are correct anything with that heat seal definitely didn't reload as nice as the Dove and Quail load hulls.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:28 am  Reply with quote
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DC37, what you experienced is the truth for me also. Folks pine for the CF hulls, and I like them too, but I think they're not all they are cracked up to be for length of life or versatility. Because they have great crimp memory, it's easy to make a good looking re-load, but I think their tapered walls and rounded base are disadvantageous for producing high performance loads within the normal pressure limits. They are ideal for lighter loads, and that still leaves them plenty of room to be useful for the majority of the 16 gauge's typical applications.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:51 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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I love the things, but as noted the capacity and pressure differences are real. Comp hulls will tend to give higher chamber pressures with similar shot charges and velocities when compared to multi piece hulls, even when using the same powder.

Consequently, I do use my CF's with 7/8 oz and 1 oz loads and Feds & Herters for the 1 1/8 oz fodder intended for long shots. I don't load hot and my hulls tend to last longer. I doubt that is a coincidence.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:26 am  Reply with quote
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bbrown wrote:
The high brass Western Super X with smooth brass seems like the plastic is thinner and more brittle at the mouth. Maybe it is just a batch thing, but I was curious if any of you have found that not all compression formed hulls are created equal?

Thanks,

Ben


I've not had a lot of experience loading the WW 16 ga compression formed hulls. They came and went before I became seriously interested in the gauge.

However, it's been my experience from reloading WW compression formed hulls in all the other gauges from 12 down to the .410 that WW compression formed hulls from the 70's and 80's last longer than the ones made from the mid-90's on until they were discontinued. The earlier hulls were very tough and appeared to have been made of many spun or stacked layers which was then molded under heat and pressure into the hull bodies. These older hulls would sometimes de-laminate after many reloadings so the layers could be peeled off, but that was after the hulls had been reloaded to the point of becoming junk. This was especially true of the .410 and 28 gauge cases. These small bore hulls were the absolute toughest and longest lasting over all others. this is a big plus considering the investment and the time it takes to accumulate a decent size stash of these hard to get sub-gauge cases.

I'm still reloading target ammo from a sizable cache of older once fired .410 hulls I bought back in the 90's from a retired registered skeet shooter. I've been getting at least 5 reloadings or more out of these old hulls before they become too worn to bother with. That's more than excellent for any .410 hull considering the diameter of the hull mouth and the fact that the slowest burning powders which must be used tend to be tough on hull mouths to boot.

None of the other .410 premium grade hulls come even close to lasting as long. The Remington premier and STS one piece .410 hulls give up the ghost often after only a couple of reloadings. They are also the only other premium grade .410 hulls around.

As you have noticed, the later WW compression formed hulls aren't a patch on the older ones in my experience. The hull mouths split after noticeably fewer reloadings. Just how it is in my experience.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:24 pm  Reply with quote
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No matter how it appears, CF hulls are not made of "spun or stacked layers". A piece of plastic, molten or softened enough to flow is placed in a female mold which contains the almost decorative brass base, and a male part of the mold is forced down inside to form the hull with integral inner base, molded tightly to the "brass". I say the brass is "almost decorative" because it really isn't "structural" as far as containing the pressure of firing, but it is functional as a surface for extraction of the spent hull after firing. That's why Win/West could make some CF hulls with the brass height down to only about 1/8 inch. Have you seen those? Yes, sometimes a violent autoloader will pull them off. But I digress.

The swirly surface of the CF hull is a result of how the plastic flowed and hardened. The tapered walls are a result of the draft required to extract the hull from the molds (or the molds from the hull, depending on your point of view). The CF process makes possible a rounded or parabolic-shaped base, enabling the use of smaller amounts of powder to achieve a given external ballistic performance. Bases shaped like that make powders behave as if they have a faster burn rate. (Note that in the later copycat Remington/Peters Premier/Blue Magic and still later STS Premiers, as well as Federal's one-piece GM they went for a flat or flatter base inside.) Olin/Winchester had come out with clean efficient, even-flowing ball powders, and coupled with this shape it was possible for them to manufacture premium loads economically. It was a pioneering milestone in shotshell design and manufacturing.

Frankly, I have not seen that the era in which they were made, has any influence on the susceptibility of CF hulls to crack. I do, however, think that the longer the hull has been stored after firing, the more susceptible it is to cracking. In general, with the small gauges (less than 12), I find a crack "failure" in reloaded once-fired hulls about one out of every ten. It's a lot less in the 12's. In each re-loading thereafter the small gauges seem to fail about one out of 20, and then after about 4 re-loads the failure rate increases. That does not keep them from being successfully re-loaded time after time, rather, they just keep getting more ugly, till you can't keep the shot inside them. Finally they get crisp at the crimp, and rough inside and are knackered. Slower powders tend to be harder on CF, and all other hulls for that matter, (e.g. the CF .410's). CF 28's and .410's will develop mid-hull lengthwise cracks, (AA-HS's will do that too in those gauges) and CF .410's will burn right off at the brass, giving the skeet shooter the occasional "whistler" type of ammo failure. Nonetheless, I have gotten 10 reloads out of CF .410's.

In general, the AA-HS's last longer than CF's, but don't look or load as nice. The only HS's that seem to last shorter for me are the .410's. Amongst the other gauges, the 20 gauge HS is the shortest lived for me. I have better luck with 20 gauge Remington GameLoad hulls. Why the 12 and 20 gauge RGL's should last so much longer than the black 16 RGL's is beyond me. Why the 20 gauge RGL outlasts the 20 gauge Rem STS is another one beyond my understanding, but again I digress (twice!). AA-HS 12's and 28's seem to go forever.
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4setters
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:30 pm  Reply with quote
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bbrown and others,

My main accolades go to Win CFs due to reliability as well as reloadability. CF's just don't fail me in the field, something I can't say for Federals or Cheddite-type hulls.

I started reloading with a Lee Loader about 1968. In 1970 I went to college in an area with good duck numbers with my Nobel pump 16 gauge. With high velocity ammo, it simply would not eject the first Federal, and only some Remingtons, due to rim/brass swelling from excessive head space. My savior was Winchester Super Speed or Western Super X CF high brass hulls--the old pump ejected them all. The reason is that the tapered hull of a CF just doesn't expand to any degree, like a straight-tubed, multi-piece hull. Soon I had my model 12 and Model 37, and Winchester Upland CF hulls were also on the market. And I graduated to a 600 jr. Thus, I started early with CF's and ain't looked back--they always perform on the hunt.

While I have never performed a test (maybe some day!), it is my belief that CF hulls, particularly the later 8-star crimp ones such as the Dove and Quail promo loads, are the most reloadable hulls out there for a 16 gauge. I'm still loading high brass and Upland hulls from the 70s and 80s. Yes, the capacity is less, but I have loaded all my 1 oz. quail loads (Green Dot, 700x, Herco, etc.) and 1 and 1/8 pheasant loads (27.5 gr. of 540/HS6) for the past 45+ years in them. In the early 80s I remember a blooper on a pheasant with one, but that was probably caused by too many bird feathers mixed with the powder! Otherwise, I can't ever remember a problem.

My brother and I both realized the utility of CFs years ago, and bought up a good stash of them, particularly Dove and Quail loads, back in the 90s. They will last both of us out, I suspect. Anyone out there want to be our beneficiaries?

On the other hand, I got off on the wrong foot Cheddite-type hulls from day one. I was given a couple of boxes of new Fiocchi GP's and a couple of boxes of Fiocchi HV's and took them pheasant hunting. The first year, I used my Citori, and had a number of hulls with split tubes, split brass and blown off crimp petals. A few years later, I tried them in my new BPS, and was immediately cutting a straight stick to poke the stuck hull out of my barrel after taking it off the gun. Mine and my brother's M37s have also had issues with them. Straight-tubed steel-hulled shells swell, and cause considerable problems in some guns (I did shoot about half a box of GP's in my Auto-5 with no problem however).

I currently use Cheddite-type hulls to load my steel 7's for hunting quail on federal land (I use different hulls to load a specific load, to keep every load identifiable in the field). They don't last long, from what I've seen. Splits and holes and stray petals around the crimps are common. The only problems I had with my new A5 Sweet this last season was three Fiocchi reloads that didn't chamber due to buggered crimp edges. Also, one has to be careful with field loads, as brass washed steel hulls rust real easy. Don't put your vest up wet. Junk, compared to CFs

Bbrown, there are at least two other 16 gauge CF hull types out there that you have not illustrated, the above-mentioned Upland loads from the 70s and 80s (mostly 6-star heat-sealed crimps, but later ones had 8-star) and Winchester Super Steel duck loads. The latter weren't made for many years, but I still have most of a flat of them from my duck hunting days.

Were I only shooting clay, and only using guns typical of this sport, Cheddites might be the ticket. But I ain't, so Cheddites will get limited use from me.

My one cent worth.

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16s: 1954 Win M12 IC
1952 Ithaca M37 Mod
1955 Browning Auto-5 Mod
1940 Ithaca NID M/F
1959 Beretta Silver Hawk
Ranger 103-II M/F
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Browning Citori Invector
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:45 am  Reply with quote



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what 4s said . they never fire form , never eject a base wad during the heat of hunting .... used to get 8/9 loads out of my Activs in the day . However , their foible was that they would screamer just like a 410 does . Always wanted to know how far a screamer traveled !!

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:55 am  Reply with quote
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4 setters,

It is too bad that those Fiocchi hulls left you believing that all 2 piece hulls are flawed and create problems, because they really don't.

Cheddite and Federal are definitely not Fiocchi and do not routinely create problems. 95% of the time I shoot repeaters, 1100, 870, 37, M12 and in 12 Gauge a Benelli SS.

Since I no longer have any amount of Winchester CF hulls in either gauge and I shoot a fair amount of Sporting Clays the hulls I choose to reload due to availability (free too) are Cheddite, RIO and Federal hulls of the 2 piece variety. They have been absolutely reliable through my repeaters in both gauges, over the last 5 or 6 years. Maybe a bit longer than that in the 16.

It's great that you had the foresight to buy up all those Winchester CF's but it hasn't really created any problems for the folks that use other hulls.

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browningsweet161977
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:53 am  Reply with quote
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4 setters, I would love to be you and your brother's beneficiary of your cf hulls Shocked my wife will not do any of my reloading if I get behind unless I'm using cf hulls. She will throw the black Remy hulls in the trash Laughing I have a variety of different 16 gauge hulls but cfs are my favorite to reload.

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:30 am  Reply with quote



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DC , I got my hands on both 12 & 16 Fios . They were both yuck !! On the other hand , I have an almost unlimited supply of Rios at my trap club . Everybody shoots the factories and tosses them . Picked up 50 for a skeet league in my 1100 - GREAT , reliable , consistent . I still have to use Rem GC's in my Lefever due to the extractor , but the Rios are starting to accumulate . Now if only they shot some 16's !! (AA"S too Putzie )

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:58 am  Reply with quote
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I get lots of RIO hulls too.......no 16 yet

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fn16ga
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:16 am  Reply with quote
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I got some of the clear 16ga Rio's from BPI . I use them for my spreader loads , they load very good and easy ID for the spreaders .
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4setters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:12 am  Reply with quote
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Dogchaser,
I have all the respect in the world for you and the contributions you've made to shotgunning and 16 gauges. Your experience and opinions are worth an all expense paid trip to the Scottish moors. I respect your opinions.

I've got my own, based on 55 years of following bird dogs. I have been reloading steel 7s in Cheddite-type hulls (2 piece, plastic basewad, straight tube, steel bases, etc.) for over ten years (VP80, Steel ~ 22 gr., 7/8 oz). This includes everything except those hulls that may actually say Cheddite on them, such as the primed cases that BPI sells. I used factory loads, saving hulls for reloading. During the 2000 years, I experimented with Fiocchis, Rios, PMCs, Nobel Sports, Winchesters, and original Bismuth Co. hullls that fit this description. In most cases, I went through about a half flat of each and now reload those hulls. I've now started experimenting with Herter's hulls. I've had problems in some of my guns with all of them except the Herter's, even factory loads in the case of Fiocchis and Rios. With reloads, I've had problems with all of them, but, so far, I use these hulls and Federals for my steel quail loads. Until my Sweet 16 came along, I mostly used my Citori with these loads, which eliminates some issues with ejection.

Although all of these hulls appear to fit a basic engineered blueprint (and at least some of them are apparently Cheddites, such as Winchesters), I do believe there are differences in quaility and reloadibility. I would rate the PMCs as the best of the lot, followed by Nobel Sports, Rios, and the old Bishmuth Co. hulls as fair, and finally, poor for Fiocchis, Federals and Winchesters.

While I'm on the subject, black Remmies are poor also, but the high brass Green Express and Express steel hulls are good. In my opinion their is a big difference in the number of reloads one can expect.

My game is hunting birds. When a malfunction occurs, it often influences one of the few shots of the day. With Win CFs I don't worry about malfunctions, and with my HS-6 reloads, I have all the confidence in the world that the pheasant is going down if he's in range.

I maintain that a avid hunter like me can still find enough Win CFs to last him in the hunting fields for years, if he's not shooting over a flat a year. More than that, he or she might have to scramble, but there are still enough new in the box Win CFs floading around to do the job.

Shooting clays. Buy some Herters or reload Cheddites (you probably can't reload clay loads for what you can buy Herter's shells new). Forget CFs, I doubt if you can put a pallet of them together any time soon. And a lot of clay shooters need more than a pallet.

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16s: 1954 Win M12 IC
1952 Ithaca M37 Mod
1955 Browning Auto-5 Mod
1940 Ithaca NID M/F
1959 Beretta Silver Hawk
Ranger 103-II M/F
Browning A-5 Sweet 16
Browning Citori Invector
Browning BPS Upland Invector
Rem 870 Remchoke
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