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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:59 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1490
Location: Central CT

4setters,

All I can say is that I am shocked that you have had failures with all the different(Fiocchi excepted) two piece hulls at one time or another. Our experiences are definitely on opposite ends of the spectrum. My 16 Gauge hunting and Sporting Clay adventures are all fueled with a steady diet of Federal, Cheddite(Winchester) and Remington RGL hulls. With the 12 it is a steady diet of Federal Top Gun, Cheddite(Herters) and RIO's. RIO's are preferred. I am a fussy guy when it comes to malfunctions, I don't put up with it period and I rarely have them. I cant remember the last time I had to re-shoot a pair during a Sporting Clay event or practice because of an issue with a reload.

Have a good weekend.

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4setters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 158
Location: NW Arkansas

Dogchaser,

For what its worth, some stories: in 1971 we invited a fellow wildlife management student (my vocation until I retired) to duck hunt with us. He showed up with a 12 gauge Savage automatic he had borrowed. He had such a good time he decided to buy a new gun and start hunting with us. He went to a local discount store and bought a new-in-the-box Mossburg pump gun, 20 gauge, and a box of 2 and 3/4 inch High Velocity 20 gauge Federals. First shot at ducks, no ejection, hull left in chamber. Single shot with pocket knife ejection rest of day. Took it back to store and they gave him another gun. Next hunt, same situation. Took it back to store and got another one. Same situation. Took it back to the store and got his money back. Went and borrowed the 12 gauge again and used it the rest of the season.

Was it the gun or the Federals? (I didn't have a 20 gauge Super X for him to try in the gun to find out!). Don't know.

My point is I've seen many, many issues with guns or ammo over the years in the field. Jamming or failure to extract 1100s probably lead the list (usually needed a good gas system cleaning), but the list goes on and on. In the late 70s, I bought a case of Federal steel 12 gauge loads (some of the first steel loads to hit the market), about half of which turned out to be factory bloopers. My Bennelli has pulled shells apart during extraction (try to get the front end of a tube out of the chamber with a stick or your pocket knife while standing knee deep in water!). Wild turkeys that walked rather than died, because the bolt on a Bennelli didn't close all the way. Click! I bought a youth model 870 that smokestacks my Win CF Super Steel factory hulls or Federal steel loads, and only works effectively with Remington Express Steel loads. A piece of bark got under my safety on my Model 103 (Marlin 90) and jammed the safety in the off position, shutting me down til I could get another gun. And don't forget the dreaded lower-barrel-fail-to-fire issue with Citoris. A writer friend here in Arkansas went of an invited hunt with the Franchi reps to test their new inertia 12 gauges autos (Infinitis I think they call them) a few years back; none of which would shoot twice on the duck hunt; wrote about the whole debacle in the state newspaper. Need I go on.

If you've hardly every had a gun or ammo issue, count yourself lucky. Or good.

Good shooting to ya. I've got some shotguns that need a good cleaning before I put them up till next fall. I want them to shoot when I pull the trigger.

Dead bird; find him; find him!

_________________
16s: 1954 Win M12 IC
1952 Ithaca M37 Mod
1955 Browning Auto-5 Mod
1940 Ithaca NID M/F
1959 Beretta Silver Hawk
Ranger 103-II M/F
Browning A-5 Sweet 16
Browning Citori Invector
Browning BPS Upland Invector
Rem 870 Remchoke
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:17 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 995
Location: Minneapolis

4setters -- First some background: I've been re-loading shotshells since 1963. My dad started in about 1959 or 1960. I have 3 brothers. In those days, re-loading was the only way the whole lot of us could afford to shoot as much as we did -- various clay pigeon presentations around the farmyard, and hunting waterfowl and upland birds. I'd say 98% of what we shot were our re-loads -- maybe more. Factory loads were either acquired occasionally with a used gun purchase (of which there were many), or found on the ground up at the duck pass. We were proud of our re-loads -- we thought our shells were better than factory loads -- probably not true, but our re-loads performed well. We all shot and hunted together in our school years, and two (and a half) of us still shoot. Of course by now, I shoot the most. I have shot as many as 20,000 of my re-loads per year in some of the early years of my serious skeet shooting. I shoot and load slightly less than half that today. Given all that, I can say that I have never had a blooper, a failure to feed/chamber, or eject, nor have I witnessed that happening to my dad and my three brothers. I have had a (1) primer failure with my handloads in skeet, fewer than I've had with factory loads (2) out of far, far fewer shells. Anyway, that's a lot of people, that's a lot of guns, a lot of different brands and actions, (singles, SxS, O/U, slide action and autoloaders), a lot of years, shells, different hull brands and materials (paper, brass and plastic, made in the US, Canada, England, Italy and Spain, at least) and gauges (I load 7 different gauges). So it is truly astounding to hear you say you have experienced "many, many issues with guns or ammo over the years in the field". If this is related to your re-loads, you might get help with your reloading technique and equipment. If it is a gun problem, you might get help with the condition of your guns. There is no good systematic reason for shotshells not to be dead reliable, regardless of the source and type of the hull and components. I just isn't rocket science to make them work.

Best Regards,
Tony
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4setters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:48 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 158
Location: NW Arkansas

Well, back to the top. Bbrown, I hope you enjoy your CF hulls. I certainly do mine.

Dogchaser and Black Belt, I believe the first statement I made about my CF hulls was about reliability (and reloadability). To me as a hunter, the first is probably the most important. I have shot mostly CF hulls, mostly reloaded, for most of the past 47 years with almost complete reliability. The only problem I can ever remember with one was the issue of a reload blooper in 1982, which I related earlier.

I also related that I had experienced some problems with other hulls. Maybe I just got a bad batch of Fiocchis as they were relatively new to the market then (just like the bad case of Federal steel loads I bought in 1978) and got off on the wrong foot. No use going over those details. My observations are that Federals and the host of more recent Cheddite-type hulls have not been as reliable for me nor as reloadable.

I'm glad that others have different experiences. I'm glad, because new CF hulls are scarce, but not impossible to find (e.g., bbrown and 11 boxes of CF Pheasants). Obviously, there are not enough of them out there for everyone. And I want people to enjoy the shooting sports, particularly with a 16 gauge!

Regarding guns, I've been a member of this site for about five years (I think), and I can recall a number of issues discussed on this site with a number of different shotgun malfunctions through time. Peruse the old threads and you will see them (e.g., the dreaded Citori bottom barrel failure to fire, BPS ejection problems, Auto 5 failure to cycle issues, short M12 bolt opening problems with 2 3/4 shells, on and on). The items I mentioned above relative to field malfunctions are not made up.

If you haven't had some gun or ammo problems, or seen others with problems on the range, I suspect its because you're rubbing elbows mostly with "professional" or "very avid" shooters who have often had their guns professionally tuned up, who dote over them like they are $50K Kriegoffs (some are),and who use more sophisticated reloading equipment than a 600 jr. In my limited time on clay ranges or shooting ranges in general, I have seen a number of both, and listening to some of the stories relayed by the range supervisor (a state wildlife agency shooting range was 2 miles down the road from my office for 21 years) convinces me they do happen.

I'm done. Nest time I go to the farm, I plan to take the items needed to load up some CFs and some Cheddite-type hulls and examine reloadability. Stay tuned. I'll post the results, with pics.

_________________
16s: 1954 Win M12 IC
1952 Ithaca M37 Mod
1955 Browning Auto-5 Mod
1940 Ithaca NID M/F
1959 Beretta Silver Hawk
Ranger 103-II M/F
Browning A-5 Sweet 16
Browning Citori Invector
Browning BPS Upland Invector
Rem 870 Remchoke
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4setters
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:50 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 158
Location: NW Arkansas

oops, sorry Black Belt, I meant Maximum Smoke. Please forgive me.

_________________
16s: 1954 Win M12 IC
1952 Ithaca M37 Mod
1955 Browning Auto-5 Mod
1940 Ithaca NID M/F
1959 Beretta Silver Hawk
Ranger 103-II M/F
Browning A-5 Sweet 16
Browning Citori Invector
Browning BPS Upland Invector
Rem 870 Remchoke
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 2820
Location: NCWa

the main issues that I recall ever having was due to insufficient sizing of the metal base. My cousin had a Mec loader that did very little to resize. He'd slam the shell into his 870, shoot, then holding the fore-end, slams the butt on the ground. the tight shell would eject and I don't recall any ever staying in the chamber due to insufficient rim. this was from a few years back when ammo was Win, Rems or Feds- before the ammo started coming in from overseas. I don't know if the quality control has decreased, but at the time whether poly or uni, they seemed to perform reliably if given some respect in reloading.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:27 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 1144
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

every once in a while , there is an anomaly that occurs in loading that's just weird . One of the shells I loaded for moo was a clear Fio . Checked them all b4 and after sizing right on the gun . Out west , when Nick was shooting those loads/guns , I heard him muse about the darn shell won't go in the gun . Didn't question it at the time , but I think maybe on final crimp , the shell remembered some stretch it had had !? Don't know , but my history with fios , I try to check them carefully .... remember the Rem 20ga magic shells that would be great and then wouldn't chamber - the brass would split on final crimp ! sometimes they just do strange things ! For the most part , if I get a bad case on pre-check , it will stay bad no matter how nice a am to it . The shell Nick got was just a weirdo . On older guns , I can see old extractor springs not pulling a stretched out shell out , fire forming is a problem occasionally .... I would like a clear STS 12 to be able to see the load in - another wish list for someday !! Till then , put up with the clear FIO/Chedds

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Molly sez AArrrooooooah !
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Square Load
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:41 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 591
Location: Flagstaff, AZ

16gaDavis,

Your wish may have been granted!

Might want to look at the new Remington Clay and Field shotgun ammo which is just hitting the shelves. They removed most of the dye so the shells are see through, but they still have some color, green or 20ga yellow. Shell appears to be an STS with smooth plastic and very little dye, STS primer, hard shot, and a brass plated steel rim. Kinda like a cross between a Gun Club and an STS. Price is in between them too. They are being made in 12, 20, 28, and 410.

Wish they would have made them in 16 also.

_________________
Dennis

Current 16ga. Stable

Browning Citori Gr I
Browning Sweet 16
Remington 11-48
Remington 31
Remington 870
Ugartechea Gr II
Winchester Mod 12
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:25 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6438
Location: massachusetts

MaximumSmoke wrote:
No matter how it appears, CF hulls are not made of "spun or stacked layers".


Olin was very proud of their AA compression hulls when they introduced them in the 1970's. They published ads w/ an explanation and some illustrations of how the hulls were manufactured in several gun and field sports magazines from that era. Being another long time reloader for the same reasons as you, I read these old ads w/ interest.

The AA compression formed hulls were terrific in comparison to any other available at the time. I dare say these AA compression formed hulls revolutionized the reloading process, and made it much easier for us to rapidly reload very dependable, great performing ammo in substantial quantities.

I very well remember that MEC updated their progressive press line from the older 650 model by introducing the Grabber model progressive reloader w/ a built-in adjustable collet resizing station shortly after the AA compression formed hulls were introduced expressly to take advantage of the hull's excellent reloading characteristics. It was a very smart move IMO. AA compression formed hulls and the Grabber went together like ham and eggs, and the press sold like hotcakes to the trap and skeet crowd in my area. I still have my very first 12 ga. Grabber, and it still reloads excellent ammo from compression formed hulls if I do my part.

I agree that the AA compression formed hulls made after the mid-80's did not exhibit peeling after many reloading, but the earlier ones did. I can't explain why this is so, if the earlier hulls weren't made of laminated plastic sheeting. I'm not claiming they were but it sure looked like it to me and several other avid shooters I knew who regularly reloaded the hulls.

And reloading good ammo is very much related to rocket science IMO if we think about it. Rockets sort of go boom when fired and so do reloads,-- sometimes unexpectedly and not to plan if we screw up. Laughing
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