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Matt85
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 29 Jan 2017
Posts: 8

Hello all, I recently purchased a J.P. Sauer & Sohn Suhl drillings from a local antique gun store. I'm fairly new to shotguns but ive had my eye on getting a drillings for some time due to the large number of grouse in the area I hunt whitetail.

This drillings is a 16g x 16g x 8x57 JR and according to the store owner it uses 2.5" shells. The bit of history he gave me on the gun was that It was made in 1937 as one of the makers higher end drillings. from my own personal opinion it seems to be a very well made gun that's in very good condition and should be a pleasant light weight hunting tool. at 6 pounds 6 ounces with 23.5" barrels it handles like a dream but is still pleasant to shoot.

Now I don't know much about shotguns or hunting birds for that matter so I will rely on you guys/girls for any possible advice. my plan is to use RST 2.5" 16g shells with #6 shot as a general purpose shells. this means grouse, turkey, squirrel, and rabbit. I understand the turkey will need to be a headshot and after some testing I'm confident out to maybe 30 yards with the tighter choked left barrel. here is the ammunition I'm planning to use: http://www.rstshells.com/store/p/113-16-Ga-2-1/2-Lite-Vel-1200-1-oz-Load-Box.aspx

The rifle barrel is proving to be a challenge as the gun doesn't want to regulate with S&B 8x57 JR ammunition so I'm testing handloads. since this rifle uses a .318" bullet my options are few but I'm holding out hope I can get something to work. so far ive tried 200gr BuffaloArms bullets over R15 and I get either accuracy or regulation but not both. next try is going to be the Woodleigh 200gr bullet which is on its way in the mail. if the Woodleigh bullets don't work out then my last option will be Hawk bullets. it would help greatly if I had some idea what the original 8x57 JR loads were, any one have an idea?

here is the basic info on the gun from the seller and some pictures ive taken (sorry for bad pictures):

Action: Blitz - trigger plate
Barrel Type: Steel
Barrel Length: 23.5"
Proof: Nitro: 2 1/2" 16g. and 8x57JR rifle
Choke: Left: .035 Full Right: .028 Full
Minimum Wall Thickness: Left: .028 Right: .028


[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/broidy85/media/P1000343_zps33mtwtbo.jpg.html] [/URL]
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[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/broidy85/media/P1000354_zpscjuiq2a6.jpg.html] [/URL]
[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/broidy85/media/P1000353_zps7r1efrcs.jpg.html] [/URL]
[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/broidy85/media/P1000352_zpsr0mjm3ky.jpg.html] [/URL]
[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/broidy85/media/P1000351_zpstlfouijn.jpg.html] [/URL]
[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/broidy85/media/P1000350_zpsdw0jgod5.jpg.html] [/URL]
[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/broidy85/media/P1000349_zpshv2zbqan.jpg.html] [/URL]
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[URL=http://s285.photobucket.com/user/broidy85/media/P1000341_zpsoihwq7gl.jpg.html] [/URL]

-Matt
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sharps4590
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:02 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Dec 2014
Posts: 156
Location: In the sticks Missouri

Congratulations on your purchase!!! Sauer & Sohn are excellent drillings and I can't believe you won't enjoy the piece.

Your choice of shotshells should be fine. It's also easy to cut back 2 3/4 hulls to the proper length, get a Ballistics Products roll crimper and load your own. Or, as you will have a supply of hulls from the RST's simply get the crimper and some over shot cards and you're on your way. As an aside Brenneke is once more offering 2 1/2 slugs. If you have an interest they might be worth a try in the shotgun barrels to see how they regulate.

I have and use 4 drillings, all 16's and all rifle cartridges are different. I was able to work up a rifle load in 3 that regulated to the sights. The 4th I had to make a new, taller front sight.

Given when your drilling was made if you look at the proofs beneath the forearm it should state for which bullet weight and material it was proofed. That can be a hint as to what bullet weight it wants. I don't believe there was a "standard" load for which the 8 X 57 was regulated. They were "shot in" with all the common 8mm weights.

I don't know if you cast bullets for rifles but don't discount cast in the rifle. I only have one drilling in which I shoot jacketed bullets, a Thieme & Shlegelmilch in 9.3 X 75R Nimrod. All the others get a cast diet. By using cast your options are endless as to weight. You won't give up anything in bullet effectiveness on whitetail by using cast. I certainly haven't. It is also possible to size down .323 cup and core jacketed bullets as you only need to go .003 to .004 down. As it turns out I have a Sauer & Sohn Mauser in 9 X 57 that has a .352 groove diameter and I size down .358 jacketed bullets to .354-.353. Results have been excellent.

Getting a load to regulate can be a PITA but for me I enjoy doing that sort of thing. Keep after it. It is more likely you can find one than not. Look forward to hearing your results!!

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skeettx
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:25 am  Reply with quote
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Posts: 6905
Location: Amarillo, Texas

WELCOME on your FIRST posting!!!!!!!!

AWESOME!!
I also have a drilling with same ammo requirements.
What a fun gun to shoot,
I do have some trouble remembering the side safety on my Krieghoff.

Do you have the rings for the right barrel scope mount?

Mike

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steve f
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 02 Nov 2015
Posts: 64
Location: N. Georgia

If the gun was made after about 1922 there will be a proof date stamped on it, mmyy format.
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Carlos
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 422
Location: Victoria BC Canada

http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html
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Matt85
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 29 Jan 2017
Posts: 8

thanks for the replies!

-the rifle barrel is marked:

7.8mm
57
737

which i assume means July of 1937.

-it does say:

Stm.G
13gr

which could mean a 13 gram bullet (200gr) which is what ive been using.

-as for the thought of using cast bullets. i dont have a problem with cast bullets (i used to do black powder) but i dont think a cast bullet would hold up well at around 2200-2250fps (seems to be the velocity this gun likes).

-slugs seem dangerous in near antique full choke barrels.

- i dont have a scope mount for that rail yet and im not sure if ill even get one. i really wanted the gun for the ability to take quick shots on grouse while hunting deer. it seems like having a scope on the gun might make it difficult to use as a wing shotgun.

-matt
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sharps4590
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Dec 2014
Posts: 156
Location: In the sticks Missouri

Done correctly cast will perform well at that velocity but you don't need that much unless that's just where you want it to be. The bullet weight and velocity can usually be juggled to make the load regulate. Just as I've had to do on several occasions with double rifles. Drillings and others with single rifle barrels are usually easier as there's only one barrel to contend with.

Brenneke slugs are safe in all chokes. They've been that way since Wilhelm designed them abck in the teens or 20's. All but one of my drillings are quite a bit older than yours, pre-WWI and pre-1900 and I tested them. Only reason I don't keep some for use is none of them shot the Brenneke's worth spit. I would not use a Foster type slug in my drillings as they are not designed for that use.

You're using the bullet weight I would have started with....and that I like in the 8mm. With your accurate load where is the group as in high, low, etc? Is the group walking as you shoot more rounds?

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Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it.
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dilly
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:44 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 278
Location: Ontario, Canada

What a nice looking gun. Congratulations on that acquisition. I have been looking for one like that for a while.

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Matt85
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 29 Jan 2017
Posts: 8

sharps4590 wrote:

You're using the bullet weight I would have started with....and that I like in the 8mm. With your accurate load where is the group as in high, low, etc? Is the group walking as you shoot more rounds?


when i start with a lighter powder load the group will be large (3-4 inches at 50y). as i increase velocity the gun will start to put two together with one flyer out a couple inches. when i finally hit the sweet spot the group tightens to just under an inch at 50y but is low and left. the shift is rather sudden and happens at 40.5gr of RL 15. at 40gr group sort of matches the sights however while two hits will be near each other but the one hit will be wildly in a random direction around 2-3 inches from the other two (at 50 yards). if i increase the powder past 40.5gr it just moves the group further low and left.

ive played with seating depth and giving lots of cool down time between shots but nothing seems to change this. interestingly the 40.5gr load has the same point of impact as the factory S&B 8x57 JR ammunition. this point of impact is about 6" low and 6" left at 100 yards (roughly, i cant remember exactly).

-matt
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sharps4590
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:15 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Dec 2014
Posts: 156
Location: In the sticks Missouri

You're doing everything right, especially the cool down in a drilling. The explanation could be several things and it seems obvious you load enough rifle ammo you're aware of them. The Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling in 9.3 X 75R Nimrod I have reacts similar to yours except the 3rd round is precisely predictable as to where it goes, about an inch high and left. If I let it set for 20-30 minutes between shots it will nearly stack successive rounds but obviously for hunting that's a bit impractical. I've never been able to eliminate that third shot out of the group but a slightly more than 1 inch group at 50 yards is pretty good accuracy from a drilling with open sights. They aren't made to shoot like a bolt action or single shot rifle.

Have you tried any IMR or H 4895? I know several guys who shoot the 8 X 57 in drillings, double rifles and combination guns and I shoot the 8 X 56 M/S in a 1908. Almost to a man we've all had best results with one of the 4895's and seems it's usually IMR. Are you using a 200 gr. round nose or spitzer bullet? I don't remember if you said. My best results in the old German pieces has always come with the round nose. Seems they're much like double rifles in that bullet profile can also make a difference.

You should be able to drift the rear sight to correct the windage even if yours has the operating rod that elevates the rear sight when you select the rifle barrel. The elevation you might end up where I did with one and have to make a new front sight. Mine have always needed to be taller but the opposite appears to be the case with yours. My gunsmith has become quite adept at making them in the rough then I file it in where I want the POI then file it to the round bead shape.

Please don't believe I think I know it all about drillings, I don't!!! I do love the old drillings, double rifles and combination guns and have worked with several over the years and like to see others to get satisfactory results with theirs. I'm throwing out there things that have worked for me over the years.

They can make you pull your hair and exercise profane language but the satisfactory grin when you hit the right combination is always worth the effort.

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Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Romans 1:22

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it.
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ninepointer
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:39 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2015
Posts: 34
Location: Ontario, Canada

Thanks Matt for posting, that's an outstanding Sauer. Great thread.

I'm curious if your barrel regulation is like that of my JP Sauer 16 ga./.30-30 combination gun?

With the flip-up sight in use, my rifle barrel shoots to point of aim at 50 yards, but the shotgun barrell (with shot) patterens high. When the sight is flipped down and the rib is only in use the shotgun shoots flat and patterns are centred but the rifle shoots low. I've concluded that my gun is regulated to be used as a rifle when the sights are in rifle mode and as a shotgun when in shotgun mode, but the 2 sighting systems are not to be mixed. BTW, much like Sharp's experience, my gun does not shoot Brennekes worth a darn.
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Matt85
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:38 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 29 Jan 2017
Posts: 8

if could get even a 4" group at 100y then i would be happy as long as it was close to my point of aim. as you said, the rifle is quite accurate with around a 1" group at 50y and it grouped around 2" at 100. if i could just get it to shoot somewhere close to where im aiming...

ive been using the Buffalo Arms 200gr spitzer bullet. however, a box of Woodleigh 200gr round nose bullets will be arriving tomorrow.

so far ive tried RL-15 and IMR 4350 with RL-15 giving the best results. i do have some H4895 but i didnt think to use it because the loads would barely even fill half of the case. ive been using the load data from the Woodleigh manual as a reference but the Buffalo Arms bullet appears to generate higher pressures so im having to use loads far below the starting loads in the book. the best RL-15 load accuracy wise (40.5gr) is half a grain below the starting load in the book.

sadly it doesnt look like either sight is adjustable for windage. but the front sight is removable so i could replace it with a shorter post if needed but the shotgun barrels already seem to pattern a little high so this might not be the best plan.

i havent tried the shotgun barrel with the rifle sight up yet. ill have to give that a try next time at the range.

-matt


Last edited by Matt85 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Carlos
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 422
Location: Victoria BC Canada

Matt; 4895 is a great powder for reduced loads. I have used it in several powders with about 60% of a starting load. The NRA magazine The Rifle, formerly had many articles using the 60% load of 4895 as a mid-range target load in 30-06 match rifles. For matches, not just practice.
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Matt85
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 29 Jan 2017
Posts: 8

i have had good luck with H4895 when using light for caliber bullets. i use 81.5gr of H4895 to push a 300gr Barnes TSX at 2650fps from my 416 RM with great accuracy. im also currently developing a load for my 9.3x62 using H4895 under a 250gr Woodleigh RN SP with good success.

i have never tried H4895 with heavy for caliber bullets like this. when my new 200gr Woodleigh bullets show up, ill probably try RL-15 first but if that doesnt work out then ill give H4895 a try.

-matt
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ninepointer
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2015
Posts: 34
Location: Ontario, Canada

Matt85 wrote:


sadly it doesnt look like either sight is adjustable for windage. but the front sight is removable so i could replace it with a shorter post if needed but the shotgun barrels already seem to pattern a little high so this might not be the best plan.


My flip-up rear sight is dove-tailed into the rib and could be drifted if needed (thankfully I don't need to), but that might not be the case with your SxS barrels.
I wish the sights on my gun were not so fine. A bold rear notch and thick front post would have been better for my middle-aged eyes.
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