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DanLee
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:10 pm  Reply with quote
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The Versamax and V3 gas systems were developed and built by Remington. There's no comparable system from overseas. The 11-87, the Sportsman models are still being produced. Aside from the finish, they are the same as the Premier models, just directed toward hunters. There is no current target model 11-87, which may be what you are thinking of. Those did not have the pressure compensating barrels of a true 11-87.

I have a 12-gauge 1100 G3, a fancied-up 11-87, and it will cycle 3/4 oz loads pretty reliably in warm weather and 7/8 oz all year round. It has a pressure compensating barrel.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:27 pm  Reply with quote
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Thanks for the added info Dan. Much appreciated.

Yes, I owned both a standard gas compensating barrel and a non-compensating target barrel for my early production 1187 Premier Model. If properly installed and fed the proper ammo, neither barrel caused me any grief. Good ammo usually does solve any issues when it comes to gas or recoil operated repeaters in good repair. As usual, it's usually the loose nut behind the gun which is the problem. Laughing

I've been led to believe the gas compensating systems on later production 1187 Models were re-designed to eliminate the need for the non-compensating target barrels. I can't verify this, because I sold my 1187 in 1992 to a fellow club member who just had to have it. He didn't have any problems with the gun and barrels either as far as I know.
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Square Load
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:17 am  Reply with quote
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[quote="DanLee"]The Versamax and V3 gas systems were developed and built by Remington. There's no comparable system from overseas.

I hate to disagree but this is simply not true.

The original A.R.G.O. (Auto-Regulating Gas-Operated) system was invented by Benelli in 1998. In 1999 Benelli submitted a shotgun for testing with this system to the US Dept. of Defense. It was tested and accepted as the new US military shotgun known as the M1014 Joint Service Combat Shotgun, also known as the M4 Tactical Shotgun in civilian form. Originally it was used by the Marines but is now used by all of our military forces. It has been incredibly reliable and can shoot any load except rubber buckshot and will function from any position, including from the hip which an inertia or long recoil system will not do. This shotgun was used a bunch in Iraq and Afganistan.

If you go to Benelli's website you can look at a picture of the M4 barrel which looks almost identical to a Versa Max or V3 as far as the gas piston configuration.

Benelli also uses the A.R.G.O. system on their R1 Big Game Rifle which to my eye is the ugliest big game rifle ever made. Hope I didn't just insult anyone Embarassed Benelli has never made a sporting shotgun with this system. The M4 costs $2000-$2400 but I understand it is one heck of a home defense and law enforcement shotgun.

What changes Remington made to the action inside the receiver I do not know, but the Versa Max and V3 actions are based on the Benelli A.R.G.O. system. If they turn out be anywhere near as reliable as the M4 they are going to be great shotguns.

_________________
Dennis

Current 16ga. Stable

Browning Citori Gr I
Browning Belgium Sweet 16
A.H. Fox Sterlingworth
Remington 11-48
Remington 31
Remington 870
Geco/J.P. Sauer BLNE
Winchester Mod 12
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:33 pm  Reply with quote
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[quote="Square Load"]
DanLee wrote:
The Versa Max and V3 gas systems were developed and built by Remington. There's no comparable system from overseas.

I hate to disagree but this is simply not true.

The original A.R.G.O. (Auto-Regulating Gas-Operated) system was invented by Benelli in 1998. In 1999 Benelli submitted a shotgun for testing with this system to the US Dept. of Defense. It was tested and accepted as the new US military shotgun known as the M1014 Joint Service Combat Shotgun, also known as the M4 Tactical Shotgun in civilian form. Originally it was used by the Marines but is now used by all of our military forces. It has been incredibly reliable and can shoot any load except rubber buckshot and will function from any position, including from the hip which an inertia or long recoil system will not do. This shotgun was used a bunch in Iraq and Afganistan.

If you go to Benelli's website you can look at a picture of the M4 barrel which looks almost identical to a Versa Max or V3 as far as the gas piston configuration.

Benelli also uses the A.R.G.O. system on their R1 Big Game Rifle which to my eye is the ugliest big game rifle ever made. Hope I didn't just insult anyone Embarassed Benelli has never made a sporting shotgun with this system. The M4 costs $2000-$2400 but I understand it is one heck of a home defense and law enforcement shotgun.

What changes Remington made to the action inside the receiver I do not know, but the Versa Max and V3 actions are based on the Benelli A.R.G.O. system. If they turn out be anywhere near as reliable as the M4 they are going to be great shotguns.


Thanks Square Load. I'd seen the same info posted on the I-net somewhere in the recent past (I now have CRS syndrome so please don't ask me exactly where)Laughing But I can't verify if the info is accurate. This is why I asked about any European designs like the Remington V3/Versa Max design.

Is it possible the Benelli patent has already expired on the design (or if it was ever applied for)? Various gas operated auto loader designs have been around for well over a half century. Some have been good, some not so good, and some well designed but poorly executed. In any case, it's old technology by now. So it might be possible the design existed in some form prior to 1998 and that Benelli simply modified and/or perfected it. In that case, getting a patent and defending it would be very difficult.

It is also possible Remington may be licensing the right to incorporate the basic design into their autoloader, or there might be enough significant differences to preclude any infringement. In the past, Remington has been very careful not to infringe on patents. I remember they were cautious enough to purchase the Ithaca Mag 10 design after Ithaca closed up. They then spent much time and money revamping the design to develop it into the SP-10. So I really can't see Remington rolling the dice by simply infringing on a well known sound design. I believe the risk would be too great, and the legal fall out far too costly. It would be very interesting to know what's up here.


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DanLee
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:34 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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Remington put the gas ports IN the chamber, not in front of it like Benelli. What this does is use the opened shell length to regulate how much gas gets into the piston system. Longer shells cover up more ports; the shortest shells uncovers more ports. It is not the same.
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