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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 157
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Mike,
I really do admire the J.P Sauer 100 year old Double Gun in your 1st picture, it also looks to have some very serious Jacob Glahn Sr. old style German light engraving on her, that I really love. Unfortunately there are really no old 1800's J.P Sauer sales records or books to tell us what grade our guns happen to be. Mine has only the one Spinning Clay Engraved on the Side-Lock plates, with some edge work. Your's has the full Engraving with no external cocking indicators, and it is truly fantastic. I take it your J.P. also has nice Krupp Barrels and articulated front trigger. No doubt about it a very fine pre war J.P. double gun.

One other word of note, skeettx's Baker Paragon double gun with Pointing Dog Scene, Spinning Clays and Flying Snipe, is one of the finest Classic American double guns ever made. The Engraving most likely by Jacob Glahn Sr is just incredible, modern machine type Engraving now tries to emulate this Master Engraves work. skeettx owns the genuine article. Hand Engraved by a German Master Engraver with few equals in his era. Mike has a right to be proud, few if any exist today. A serious piece of Classic American gun making to be passed down for many more generations to come.

Pine Creek/Dave

Our latest 1895-1896 J.P.Sauer acquisition from Vintage Double Guns - Kirby Hoyt.

[URL=http://s264.photobucket.com/user/pine-creek/media/J-P-Sauer-and-Sohn-16g-sidelock-nicely-restored_100856162_23_FBC3E2F32DAC1B10_zpsbp71pzyi.jpg.html] [/URL]

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Chukarman
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 161

I have never understood the attraction to LC Smith guns. A good friend of mine and very talented gunmaker built a totally custom LC Smith as the annual auction gun for the American Custom Gunmakers Guild's annual gathering. He fixed most of the design flaws and it was very pretty, but still a Smith.

His opinion is the same as mine -- he was really glad to be done with it.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:15 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 157
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

FtoF,

You are so right no minds will be changed what so ever.

Pine Creek/Dave

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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:06 pm  Reply with quote
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
FtoF,

You are so right no minds will be changed what so ever.

Pine Creek/Dave


That's a good thing, it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything. To each his own.

Dale

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cowdoc87
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:34 pm  Reply with quote
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+1 on what Dale said

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i reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.
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skeettx
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:48 pm  Reply with quote
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+2
Mike

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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:54 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Apr 2007
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Location: The Great Northwet

Although I don't own any currently, I've easily owned over a dozen Syracuse Lefevers, mostly F grades and lower, and of the American guns, I've also owned and worked on quite a few Smiths, Parkers, a Fox or three, some Bakers and Ithaca Flues, some Remington 1894's and 1900's, and a few others I've forgotten. Not to mention dozens of Euro guns, including the Husky hammer guns I'm currently enjoying.

Mechanically, the Lefever is the simplest, and easiest to work on, does not wear out by virtue of the adjusting ball in the receiver, and handles very well in the lighter configurations. I will not say anything disparaging about the others, because I've had the privilege of working on some incredible examples, including some very high grade Lefevers. They all have their pluses and minuses. but if I had to choose, it would be a good condition, graded Syracuse Lefever with shootable dimensions, without hesitation. Wink

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Great Odin's Raven! Is that a 16?
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 157
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

UncleDanFan,

No doubt about the LeFever guns, they are well engineered and taken care of correctly they last forever. Would love to have the B Grade back that was in our family collection.

It was one of my Great Grandfathers favorite 16 Gauge Grouse guns. It was sold to one of my Grandfather's close friends because of the Damascus Barrels. My Grandfather wanted to weed out all the double guns with Damascus Barrels when the new Nitro Powders hit the market. IMO this was a mistake, my chances of ever finding that B Grade LeFever with it's incredible engraving on the step side plates, Breech and Barrels, is almost impossible now. Love to have the gun back.

If this LeFever gun with it's 5th engraving version would have been purchased originally with the Krupp Steel Barrels, instead of the fine Damascus, it would still be in my gun Cabinet today. Other than the Special A4 L.C. Smith that was finally recovered by John Houchins, I view this B Grade LeFever 16 as the biggest loss to our family gun collection.

As Bill Brophy told us one evening while gathering historical information for his book, Hunter Arms should be darn glad LeFever decided to Engineer and build Box Lock double guns. Uncle Dan LeFever was a true Master Gun Maker with few equals.

UncleDanFan welcome to the 16 forum.

Pine Creek/Dave

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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:20 am  Reply with quote
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Thanks Dave,

I've been posting here for many years, it's just been a while. Losing a B grade 16 is most definitely unfortunate.

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Great Odin's Raven! Is that a 16?
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:58 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 157
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

UncleDanFan,

I did not notice your joining date, good to see you posting again!

Pine Creek/Dave

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Chukarman
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:36 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 161

Compared to Brit and some European guns of 50 - 100 years ago, American made guns of the period are, in fact, crude.

Why would you pay $4500 for a subgauge Fox or Parker, when you could have a better gun - say a well made B'ham BLE 16 for less money? This from a guy that has Foxes, Model 21's, and a mix of European and Brit guns.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 564
Location: Hudson,Wy

I have owned a variety of two barreled guns, some european and some American. My income level and the fact that guns get used very frequently means I buy fix up projects or less expensive guns.

I have seen the inner workings of all of them. Things wear out. Beretta, Fox, L.C. Smith, Lefever (original company), Ithaca/ Lefever (Nitro Special), Crescent, and a variety of Spanish and Italian guns make up this list.

The L.C. and original Lefever are the most difficult to work on, internally. The Lefever is an outstanding design though and I like it extremely well. Under lug box locks certainly have their plusses.

However,when in the field, of all the doubles I have carried I like the Lefever and Fox the best followed by a Beretta O/U. Period.

With that I emphasize that actually using and relishing a firearm for its handling qualities and other intangible attributes triumphs over any engineering squabble. We carry a gun for the enjoyment not because of a gunsmith's article, no matter how valid his points may be.

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fred lauer
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:27 pm  Reply with quote
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WyoChukar that last paragraph is so very well said. I agree 100%

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 157
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,
In my case I like the way my pre 13 L.C. Smith guns carry and mount as I bird hunt. In fact I am looking to replace a L.C. Smith 16 Gauge Hammer Gun, that I mistakenly gifted to another man. I have to admit that my 12 gauge LeFever on what looks to be a 16 Gauge frame is some sweet swinging/shooting double gun, very deadly bird gun no doubt about it.

Our family having owned Boss and J. P. Sauer guns, down thru the generations, the pre 13 L.C. Smith Guns with the Brown Rotary Bolt engineering is in reality the stronger gun design.

There is no comparison in reality. However at the present time I am now looking at a nice Boss 16 Gauge Hammer gun to add to the family double gun collection once again. I find I do miss having one to bird hunt with. Further the 1800's J.P. Sauer 16 Gauge Side Lock I just replaced in our collection, is one serious German bird gun, well made is an understatement.

IMO There are some Euro Side Lock double guns worth owning and using in the Grouse Woods and Pheasant fields.

Each to his own, hunt and own the guns you like best!

Pine Creek/Dave

1800's J.P. Sauer 16

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/52089_600x400/] [/URL]

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canvasback
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 446
Location: Ontario

Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
WyoChukar,
In my case I like the way my pre 13 L.C. Smith guns carry and mount as I bird hunt. In fact I am looking to replace a L.C. Smith 16 Gauge Hammer Gun, that I mistakenly gifted to another man. I have to admit that my 12 gauge LeFever on what looks to be a 16 Gauge frame is some sweet swinging/shooting double gun, very deadly bird gun no doubt about it.

Our family having owned Boss and J. P. Sauer guns, down thru the generations, the pre 13 L.C. Smith Guns with the Brown Rotary Bolt engineering is in reality the stronger gun design.

There is no comparison in reality. However at the present time I am now looking at a nice Boss 16 Gauge Hammer gun to add to the family double gun collection once again. I find I do miss having one to bird hunt with. Further the 1800's J.P. Sauer 16 Gauge Side Lock I just replaced in our collection, is one serious German bird gun, well made is an understatement.

IMO There are some Euro Side Lock double guns worth owning and using in the Grouse Woods and Pheasant fields.

Each to his own, hunt and own the guns you like best!

Pine Creek/Dave

1800's J.P. Sauer 16

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/52089_600x400/] [/URL]


I think this is hilarious.

The OP started this thread by naming it an "unbiased" look and linking to an article by Dewey Vicknair, a gunsmith of rare skill. In your first post you denigrate Vicknair's opinion and go on to discuss Elsies. Your posts over the last few months have been primarily about the wonderfulness of Elsies.

Do you not recognize the irony inherent in your posts? You could not have been more biased in your comments on this thread and others.

There are very few people in NA whose opinion on doubleguns I would value over Dewey Vicknair's. I'm just someone who enjoys the guns and the work of highly skilled craftsmen and artisans.

Elsies sell at the prices they can sell for (collector grade) because of the enthusiasm Americans have for collecting American made guns. Nothing wrong with that but it's a fact. They were made in relatively large factories to hit pricepoints, not custom hand crafted in small shops. Uncle Dan's products show some design brilliance. Fox's gun is a model of simplicity and his design reaches it's zenith with the small bores.

But these guns aren't in the same league as the best from Europe and Britain. They just aren't. Not in design and not in workmanship and not in handling. Some have high valuations because of a thriving collector market, not the inherent quality of design and craftsmanship.

I will agree with you "to each his own, hunt and own the guns you like the best". That's the mantra I try to follow and as a result I have guns from all over, including a healthy assortment of American guns. But I'll add to your comment...."buy the gun, not the name". (Serious collectors, please disregard that advice).

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Fox Sterlingworth 16
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