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Lon
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 7:56 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Spokane, WA

I finally got a chance to shoot some 16 gauge reloads over the chronograph using the new IMR Green powder.

As a reminder, IMR has copied several Alliant gun powders and named them similarly: Green, Red, Blue, Unequal...IMR's claim is you can use the same recipes and same powder bushings as Alliant's similarly named powders (Green Dot, Red Dot, Blue Dot, Unique).

I loaded up 10 each of seven different Green Dot recipes but used IMR Green powder instead. All other components were the same as loads I'd shot over the chronograph using Green Dot in the past.

By the way, the size and shape of the IMR Green powder flakes, including little green "dots" are similar to Green Dot.

I used a variety of components including Federal, Fiocchi and Cheddite hulls; Federal and Cheddite primers; SG16 and DR16 wads and even did one recipe with 2.5" hulls.

Three recipes were 7/8 oz. Three recipes were one ounce and the last one was a 1 1/16 ounce recipe I had pressure tested at Precision Reloading.

Six out of the seven recipes with IMR Green powder produced slightly more consistent results and slightly higher velocities (between .5 and 3 % faster velocities which is negligible).

I have no way of knowing how much difference there is in PSI.

Only one recipe produced a nearly identical velocity, EV and SD. All the others were more consistent.

Standard Deviations with Green were from a few percentage points up to 40 percent more consistent than Green Dot.

Green's Extreme Variance of velocities were just a few percentage points and up to 40 percent more consistent than chronograph tests I'd done in the past with Green Dot.

At the end of shooting 70 rounds, I looked down the barrel and I thought there was very little residue and no unburned powder.

Based on this small sample, I'd say IMR's claim that Green is more efficient, cleaner burning and more consistent than Green Dot is basically true.

I wouldn't say Green was way better than Green Dot but it was enough of an improvement for me to run some more Green recipes over the chronograph and see if I get repeatable results.

When IMR's Unequal powder becomes available, I'll be running some comparisons to Unique as well.

Lon

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goathoof
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:35 am  Reply with quote
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Thank you for your diligence!
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:38 am  Reply with quote
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Lon , great report , good to know that we have other powder options , for known data.

Thanks !!
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jbusch720
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Jan 2014
Posts: 66
Location: Wyoming

Thank you for taking the time to share this information. Would you be willing to share the 7/8 oz. loads that you tested?
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 3:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

outstanding work, great test and writeup!
Thanks very much.
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Brewster11
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 6:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1297
Location: Western WA

Awesome report Lon!
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Lon
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:27 pm  Reply with quote
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Here are more details for those interested:

All chronograph tests were 10-shot strings with new or once fired hulls.

The three 7/8 oz loads I shot over the chronograph are as follows:

Load #1
Federal 2.75" 1x hull
Federal 209A primer
17.7 grs IMR Green
DR16 wad
7/8 oz 8s

1274 FPS
7 SD
20 EV

I shot this recipe with Green Dot over the chronograph two previous times and got mixed results:

1223 FPS
11 SD
30 EV

And,
1246 FPS
24 SD
63 EV

Load #2
Fiocchi 2.75" 1x hulls
Federal 209A primer
17.7 grs IMR Green
DR16 wad
7/8 oz 8s

1280 FPS
6 SD
23 EV

I shot this recipe previously with Green Dot and got these results:

1248 FPS
9 SD
28 EV

I don't have pressure test results for these two recipes but I believe they are well within SAAMI guidelines of 11,500 PSI for the following reasons:

Mike Campbell posted on this forum that he had paid for pressure testing on this recipe:

Win SX 2.75" hull
Federal 209A
18 grs Green Dot
DR16 wad
1 oz

1238-1245 FPS
10,400-11,000 PSI

Since the two loads I tested have .3 grains less powder and 1/8 oz less shot, I believe, even though it's with different hulls, these two recipes should be safe. That's with the caveat that IMR Green produces similar pressures as Green Dot. I can't believe that IMR would go out on a liability limb and tell reloaders they can use Green Dot recipes and load with Green without thorough testing on their part.

Load #3

Cheddite 2.5" new hulls
Federal 209A primer
15 grs IMR Green
SG16 wad
7/8 oz 8s

1144 FPS
10 SD
29 EV

I've shot this recipe with Green Dot three times:

1140 FPS
6 SD
23 EV

1145 FPS
11 SD
33 EV

1129 FPS
10 SD
34 EV

I do not have pressure test results from this recipe either. I used the following two recipes from the spreadsheets as reference points:

Cheddite 2.5" hull
Federal 209A primer
14.5 grs Green Dot
SG16 wad
3/4 oz

1098 FPS
6233 PSI

Federal 2.75" hull
Fed 209A primer
18.5 grs Green Dot
SG16 wad
1 oz

1220 FPS
9300 PSI

I plan on shooting these three 7/8 ounce loads over the chronograph again to see if I can get repeatable results.

I'm NOT endorsing that anyone use these exact recipe until they are sent off for pressure testing.

Out of curiosity, I ran the chronograph tests with IMR Green powder compared to the same recipes using Green Dot so I had somewhat of a baseline going forward with my own reloading.

I'm just sharing information. What you do with your reloading is your responsibility.

Lon
[/i]

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri

Very good testing and results.
Looking at your Standard Deviation and Extreme Spread I believe your going to find out IMR Green running higher pressures than Alliant Green Dot, once your numbers start getting closer like they did with IMR Green your pressure usually is going up.
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Lon
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:36 am  Reply with quote
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16GAwaterfowler,

I would tend to agree with you about IMR Green probably producing higher pressures than Green Dot and thus, more consistent SD and EV numbers.

Only paying for pressure testing will prove by how much.

Lon

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Lon
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:53 pm  Reply with quote
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Here are the three one ounce loads I tested using IMR Green powder:

Load #4

Fiocchi 2.75" 1x hull
Federal 209A
18.5 grs IMR Green
SG16
1 oz 6s

1262 FPS
6 SD
17 EV

No pressure test results yet.

When I tested this load with Green Dot, I got these results:

1238 FPS
10 SD
29 EV

I used a load from the spreadsheet as a reference:

Cheddite hull
Cheddite primer
18 grs Green Dot
SG16
1 oz

1165 FPS
8400 PSI

Load #5

Cheddite 2.75" new hull
Cheddite 209
20 grs IMR Green
SG16
1 oz 6s

1294 FPS
6 SD
18 EV

No pressure test on this load yet either.

I tested this load with Green Dot three time previously with two good result and one test not so consistent. They are:

1288 FPS
13 SD
40 EV

1273 FPS
7 SD
22 EV

1280 FPS
7 SD
24 EV

Not sure if it's the powder, one or two less consistent primers or what that caused the one test to almost double the SD and EV?

Load #6

Federal 2.75" 1x hulls
Federal 209A primers
18.5 grs IMR Green
SG16
1 oz 6s

1242 FPS
10 SD
31 EV

I had tested this recipe three times previously with Green Dot:

1235 FPS
7 SD
23 EV

1240 FPS
10 SD
33 EV

1212 FPS
12 SD
38 EV

The spreadsheets show this load with Green Dot producing:

1220 FPS
9300 PSI

Lon

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:07 pm  Reply with quote
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Nice info to know, and thanks Lon. However, unless the Hodgdon/IMR blatant copies of Alliant powders have a considerable price advantage, I'll be sticking with the original Alliant versions because they are not only the original, but are also US made. If Hodgdon offer their copies at lower prices than the originals, Alliant will simply drop their prices according to the damage done to their market share, if any. I think Hodgdon's strategy in the design and marketing of these Alliant equivalents is flawed. Frankly I can't believe they would do a thing like that. It speaks of desperation. Alliant could respond with the same BS claims Hodgdon makes.

When Hodgdon can distinguish their previous equivalents, Clays, International, and Universal on a performance basis, why do they want to ditch those products for an even more blatant "me too" line of copies, the performance and usage of which they claim equivalence. My guess is that manufacturing cost and consequent low profitability mean they can't capture enough market with their old copies. But to market products such as the new copies as interchangeable but the same or greater price . . . . . Desperation? You bet!

Wonder what they will call their higher density Unique equivalent if they ever come up with one for we high-volume skeet shooters loading the current WAA-HS hulls. Alliant's is 20/28; I suppose Hodgdon's will be 28/20 . . . I can see that coming.

The whole thing kinda makes me want to stop buying any Hodgdon powder. Idea It ought to make one think about that. Wonder where these new Hodgdon powders are made? China maybe??
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:21 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
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Location: missouri

Lon wrote:
16GAwaterfowler,

I would tend to agree with you about IMR Green probably producing higher pressures than Green Dot and thus, more consistent SD and EV numbers.

Only paying for pressure testing will prove by how much.

Lon

Not sure if it's the powder, one or two less consistent primers or what that caused the one test to almost double the SD and EV?

Overpressure will show that over the chronograph, SD and EV get to a certain point and then numbers start to rise with overpressure, also happens with Rifle/Pistol loads as well
Actually what it your results seem to suggest is IMR Green is faster burning than Green Dot and in certain instances you would have to adjust recipes especially with the fact many Green Dot recipes are at the limit of working pressures.
I would not hesitate to use milder primers with IMR Green in recipes that call for the Federal 209A or CCI 209M with Green dot.
This is why fact gathering when new powders are introduced is a very good thing, Hodgdon has claimed in the past many of their powders were exact copes of IMR powders, now it's Alliants powders they are making this claim towards.
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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

Thank you so much for doing this! I am down to a pound in my last keg of Green Dot and would like to switch to the IMR Green but couldn't find anyone that has done empirical testing. Until now. Not worried about pressure so much as I load 7/8 @ 1200 fps and all my guns are late 30's or newer.

MaximumSmoke wrote:
Nice info to know, and thanks Lon. However, unless the Hodgdon/IMR blatant copies of Alliant powders have a considerable price advantage, I'll be sticking with the original Alliant versions because they are not only the original, but are also US made. If Hodgdon offer their copies at lower prices than the originals, Alliant will simply drop their prices according to the damage done to their market share, if any. I think Hodgdon's strategy in the design and marketing of these Alliant equivalents is flawed. Frankly I can't believe they would do a thing like that. It speaks of desperation. Alliant could respond with the same BS claims Hodgdon makes.

When Hodgdon can distinguish their previous equivalents, Clays, International, and Universal on a performance basis, why do they want to ditch those products for an even more blatant "me too" line of copies, the performance and usage of which they claim equivalence. My guess is that manufacturing cost and consequent low profitability mean they can't capture enough market with their old copies. But to market products such as the new copies as interchangeable but the same or greater price . . . . . Desperation? You bet!

Wonder what they will call their higher density Unique equivalent if they ever come up with one for we high-volume skeet shooters loading the current WAA-HS hulls. Alliant's is 20/28; I suppose Hodgdon's will be 28/20 . . . I can see that coming.

The whole thing kinda makes me want to stop buying any Hodgdon powder. Idea It ought to make one think about that. Wonder where these new Hodgdon powders are made? China maybe??


Actually Alliant brought this on themselves when they introduced Clay Dot powder to try and capitalize on the popularity of Hodgdon Clays. Hodgdon brought an intellectual property lawsuit against Alliant and a judge ruled against Hodgdon in 2007. Which in turn opened up the door for Hodgdon to reciprocate in kind.

http://www.leagle.com/decision/20071718497FSupp2d1221_11616/HODGDON%20POWDER%20CO.,%20INC.%20v.%20ALLIANT%20TECHSYSTEMS

Don't believe Hodgdon is desperate or struggling LOL it is more of how do you like a taste of your own medicine. Hodgdon got its start after WWII selling surplus powders and is a US company. And I for one will be using the new IMR powders instead of the Alliant dot powders. On principal alone.

My notes are likely dated but what I have is-
Some Alliant powders are made in Sweden, and at least one in Switzerland. The flake powders are made in Wilmington, DE. Ramshot offerings are mostly made in Beligum. Accurate stuff is mostly of Czech mfg.

Hodgdon extruded and flake powders are imported from ADI (Australian Defense Industries) in Australia. Hodgdon\Winchester Spherical powders are made in the St. Marks Florida plant.

I spend a couple of weeks hunting in SD every year with some other retired Navy guys and a few AF pilots. One of my friends Steve is a retired Admiral and the State Dept. approached him a few years ago about taking over the Seawolf submarine program for Australia.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/this-retired-us-navy-rear-admiral-is-now-the-master-of-australias-submarines-2015-10

Which he did and has a couple of years left. Although he does take time to come to SD and hunt with us, he better it is his house LOL.

I have nothing against the Aussies or Chris Hodgdon and his employees in Kansas. However in my view what Alliant did with Clay Dot was shady at best IMO.
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

Probably best to keep this thread on target with Lon's initial posting: a DATA thread comparing two powders using the same load data to assess differences. Getting sidetracked into political discussions of country of origin, US made, and Alliant vs. Hodgden, is a bit disrespectful of the hard work and time Lon put into this, and certainly dilutes the thread.
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:40 am  Reply with quote
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Lon,
Did you shoot the green dot and green loads back to back on the same day in the same conditions? I think comparing data from green dot loads tested last year to Green loads tested now may not show the whole picture. If you load 10 with green dot and 10 with green at the same time then fire them at the same time you can draw a better comparison. Atmospheric conditions, relative humidity, primer batches, powder age, loading technics can and do affect results. I do appreciate all the effort and time you spent and results might end up the same but the test is not definitive unless everything is truly the same. I think Mike Campbell and Dogchaser have explained over the years that the same loads will get different results different days, different guns, different loader adjustments etc.. Obviously your using the same loader and probably the same gun so the atmospheric conditions will be the only variable. I have noticed that the same powder bushing will drop a different weight charge of the same powder on different days and powder batches. I think density and moisture affect it slightly. Again thanks for the work don't take this the wrong way.
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