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castnblast
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 33

Ok, so in trying to duplicate the 12 ga super pigeon, I loaded up the following:
Fed hull, Fed 209A, 29 grains Blue Dot, 1 1/4 oz #5's. Verified by scale, not charge bar.

Sent to Precision for testing and got the following for 5 shot string:

1342 fps
12,576 psi

Alliant lists the same load with 30.5 Blue Dot 1260 and 10,500psi.

What gives?
Precision even opens one shell to verify components.
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 182

What was crimp depth?
I've found almost 3000 psi difference between 0.080" and 0.055" on some loads I sent in. And hitting the tops with a Gaep or similar will also increase pressure.

Any filler wads added? SP16 wad is what you used also?

Otherwise, it looks like just the statistical differences in components adding up on you.
It is surprising considering you dropped powder like that.
THANKS for doing a pressure test and sharing the results here!!
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:42 pm  Reply with quote
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I hear black helicopters.........please dont change this forum into Shotgun World, where Alliant and Hodgdon have no idea what they are doing and they are purposefully allowing bad data to be published.

You have two entities that have tested loads, and nothing is apples to apples.

Please do not believe that you can do these tests and expect the same results.

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old colonel
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:19 pm  Reply with quote
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AZ please explain on the use of GAEP crimper and increasing pressure?

I always thought that fold crimp properly done with load data for a fold crimp and all other things equal resulted in decreased pressure.

I realize you can over do anything in terms of depth of crimp either folding or rolled but have not heard multi that large a jump in PSI before

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sneem
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 420

As a reloader with almost 40 years of experience, I am always leery of trying to load at max or approaching max loads. Trying to push the 16 gauge to mimic 1 1/4 oz 12 gauge loads is simply looking for trouble. When one gets out to the extreme outer edge of the envelope, slight differences are likely to cause big differences. If one wishes to shoot 12 gauge ballistics, get a 12 gauge. The companies like Hodgdon and Alliant have too much to lose to publish data that exceeds stated standards. I would trust their data.

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 213
Location: missouri

sneem wrote:
As a reloader with almost 40 years of experience, I am always leery of trying to load at max or approaching max loads. Trying to push the 16 gauge to mimic 1 1/4 oz 12 gauge loads is simply looking for trouble. When one gets out to the extreme outer edge of the envelope, slight differences are likely to cause big differences. If one wishes to shoot 12 gauge ballistics, get a 12 gauge. The companies like Hodgdon and Alliant have too much to lose to publish data that exceeds stated standards. I would trust their data.

^^ This.
To many people try to overload a 16 gauge with 1 1/4 oz loads then find out the guns don't handle 1 1/4 oz loads all that well, or as was stated you can't make a 16 into a 12 gauge.
If you want heavy loads the best performance comes with 1 1/8 oz loads, I duplicate the Remington Express 1 1/8 oz 1295 fps loads. You'll get better performance and no problems from them.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:43 am  Reply with quote
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are you trying to duplicate a 12ga load in a 16ga hull?

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castnblast
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:25 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 33

The wad was a SP16. Crimp was level, too much shot for anything else. I wanted a second barrel pheasant load. I was looking to back down from the published 1260 fps to something around 1220 with the larger 5's. Thus the 1 1/4 oz to help fill the pattern. I can use the 1 1/8 oz 32grain Blue Dot load but now I'm leary of all the data published.
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:23 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Florida

1 oz #6 lead shot (Remington)
Cheddite Green Hull (8 mm brass) 2 16 ga
Win209 Primer
22.5 grains Longshot powder
Cheddite 1628 wad

FPS (1209, 1211, 1217, AVG 1212 ES 8 )
PSI (11000, 10600, 11200, AVG 10933 ES 600)

Heres a load that bowbuilder had tested , the only experience I have with it is for turkeys through an extra full choke , worked well .
I use the 1632 wad instead of the 1628 because Grafs no longer carries the 1628 . They are the exactly same except the 1628 wad has little pins in the over powder cup .



Last edited by fn16ga on Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:32 am  Reply with quote
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Also a buffered load.
1 oz #6 lead shot (Remington)
Cheddite Green Hull (8 mm brass) 2 16 ga
Ched209 Primer (What comes in the new hulls)
20.5 grains Longshot powder
Cheddite 1628 wad
16 grains MIX 47 Buffer (approx. (1) 2.5cc dipper full)
(1) 16ga Overshot card (BP OS16)

Velocity(fps): 1121, 1125, 1125 (AVE 1122 ES 4)
Pressure(psi): 10000, 9800, 9800 (AVE 9866 ES 200)
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:12 am  Reply with quote
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I cannot understand not using the 16 gauge to its fullest.

It will easily handle 1 1/4 oz. loads and stay within SAAMI guidelines. This is nothing new.

I do use 1 1/4 oz. loads for turkey hunting.

Back to the subject......

Why do folks believe data from Precision Reloading, but not from Alliant?

There is NOTHING in the shotshells that Alliant tested that is the same as the shotshells that Precision tested. The two test rigs are different. The people who did the reloading are different. Heck you dont get the exact same results using the same tech, test rig and components on back to back tests 15 minutes apart.

However I do want to thank those that feel compelled to retest published data ........for stimulating the economy.

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:44 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
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Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

a 3RD D.P. lyman #2 ... Fed , Fed 209 , 25 grns BD , RemSP ,11/4oz - 1205fps , 9990 LUP's . This is more of where I'd wanna be .

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old colonel
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:00 am  Reply with quote
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I used to reload 1 1/4 but found it a pain

At one time several different companies offered 1 1/4 16ga loads but I do not believe they are now being made (not enough demand). Sometime back I brought to cases of 1 1/4 loads for the purpose of a second barrel at late season pheasants and found I rarely use them as they excessively kick.

Experience has shown me 1oz in the right and 1 1/8 in the left is enough

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Michael
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:25 pm  Reply with quote
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old colonel,

I had a similar experience with 1 1/4 oz. loads for pheasants.......in my 1100 I loaded 2 - 1 1/8 oz. loads of 6s followed by a 1 1/4 oz. load of 5s. From 2002 until 2015 I used 4 - 1 1/4 oz. loads. Last year I started loading just 2 - 1 1/8 oz of 6s.

Now I only use the 1 1/4s for turkey.

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byrdog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:52 pm  Reply with quote
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even at 1343 nothing is going to blow the standard safe pressure limit is an arbitrary number This is a manufactures guide line to be safe in average condition guns. IT IS NOT A BURST PRESSURE.

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If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/
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